# A public service: Names of Proposition 8 supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362 "2009-02-04T03:12:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/61 "2009-02-04T17:43:26Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > Also, their campaign systematically tried to use the same sort of information to extort contributions from businesses who had donated to gay rights organizations. And it was wrong when they did it, too. I don’t think anyone here is disputing the _legality_ of the action; given the law, I don’t think the judge had any choice. It may be advisable to change the law, but that would have other complications. What we’re questioning is whether or not this practice is a good direction to take our political discourse. Whether it is _advisable_, both for the country as a whole and even for progressive social causes themselves. On the Florida Turnpike near Ocala, there was for a long time (still there AFAIK) a billboard put up by some guy with a grudge against the local sheriff. I listed a phone number and told people to call the sheriff and ask why he was persecuting innocent people (or some such). As I understand it, the sheriff had tried to get the sign taken down, but the guy owned the land and courts ruled he had the right. I don’t have a problem with that: the sheriff is an elected official. What I don’t want to see is the day when people put up billboards saying “Private Citizen Larry J. Flinders of Podunk, North Florida has given money to support the killing of babies (right of perverts to molest children, help the terrorists win, etc.). Let him know what you think.” Based on the arguments presented here, progressives wouldn’t have problem with those signs. I’m a bit dubious. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/62 "2009-02-04T17:43:36Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Are you arguing that people who donate money to political causes should have anonymity? Ideally, people should be able to segregate a person’s political beliefs from their personal beliefs. I voted no on prop 8, but I don’t hate the people who voted yes (or gave money to that cause), and I don’t want to see them financially ruined. I just want to see their minds changed. So, in a perfect world, I wouldn’t care about the anonymity. But, as I’m seeing here, where apparently vandalism and extortion are, if not supported, understandable outcomes, then, yes, it should be anonymous. I will think twice about donating to the next pro gay marriage amendment because I don’t want these tactics used against me. This isn’t the way it should be, but it’s the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/63 "2009-02-04T17:47:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No. > > Regards, > Shodan Because that wouldn’t make any sense, right? It’s not a bright way to design laws, based on how people might break them. It applies to donation laws too – the public interest is better served by transparency in political financing than it is by cowering in a corner because there are bad and crazy people in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/64 "2009-02-04T17:48:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, I saw that. And you stated that you did not feel that the information should be kept private, even if “assholes use the information for inapporpriate(sic) and illegal purposes”. > > So, even if assholes use the information for inappropriate and illegal purposes, the names of abortion providers should not be kept private. > > Or are you now arguing that information _should_ be kept private if assholes use it for inappropriate and illegal purposes? > > Or are you doing what I suspect you are doing, which is arguing that even if assholes use the information for inappropriate and illegal purposes, that’s OK as long as the assholes agree with you? > > Regards, > Shodan I don’t think that’s what he’s doing. Why would an abortion provider want to be totally anonymous? You wouldn’t get any clients that way. But an abortion provider is not a political donor (unless they actually, you know, donate money to a political cause) and is not part of the topic of this thread, which is the question of privacy of political donors. There are laws in place against harassment, vandalism and assault, and the people committing harassment vandalism and assault against both political donors and private businesses should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Perhaps there should be some refinement of those laws to solve the problem of people finding new ways of harassing people through the internet. But trying to solve the problem by removing the information from the public domain completely is not the answer. This is what I’m reading \*\*yojimbo’s \*\*point to be. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/65 "2009-02-04T17:48:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So the websites listing the names and work locations of abortion providers are OK with you? The workplaces of abortion providers are, typically, places where abortions are provided. They’re not hard to find. This is information that’s in the phone book, ferchrissake. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/66 "2009-02-04T17:50:42Z")
That said, of course it’s wrong for anybody to incite others to act criminally with the information, whatever the cause in question. There are legitimate uses for the information so merely listing it on a cause-oriented site isn’t incitement, however. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/67 "2009-02-04T17:55:05Z")
> [@furt](#): > > What I don’t want to see is the day when people put up billboards saying “Private Citizen Larry J. Flinders of Podunk, North Florida has given money to support the killing of babies (right of perverts to molest children, help the terrorists win, etc.). Let him know what you think.” > > Based on the arguments presented here, progressives wouldn’t have problem with those signs. I’m a bit dubious. The description of a pro-choice donor as a “supporter of baby-killers” is inflammatory language. It could be argued that it borders on slander. The stated mission from the website in the OP of donors to Prop 8 is “We want the country to know who gave the $36 million to the Yes on Proposition 8 campaign that ended same-sex marriage in California.” Is that inflammatory, or is that an accurate description? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/68 "2009-02-04T17:56:30Z")
> [@furt](#): > > And it was wrong when they did it, too. > I don’t think anyone here is disputing the _legality_ of the action; given the law, I don’t think the judge had any choice. It may be advisable to change the law, but that would have other complications. > > What we’re questioning is whether or not this practice is a good direction to take our political discourse. Whether it is _advisable_, both for the country as a whole and even for progressive social causes themselves. I still consider donations on par with speaking up. We vote in secret, but I definitely see a moral equivalence between standing up to speak and hiring someone else to stand up to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/69 "2009-02-04T18:07:07Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Listen - I posted my original response to get people to think. I have thought, and I have not changed my mind. We have laws against harassment, stalking, vandalism, assault, murder, hate crimes, libel, etc. They should be enforced. We have laws that declare political donation should take place in the clear light of day. It should also be enforced. How else are we to know who is influencing our elections? I find it disturbing that a Utah-based organization is unabashedly donating millions to influence a California law. What if it were donors from China? India? Cuba? Russia? We have to know where the money comes from. It’s odd that “we need to know the names of all of Obama’s donors!” was such a rallying cry for the conservatives in the campaign, but “we need to conceal the names of Prop 8’s donors!” is a rallying cry now. When the one crossed over into the other — when political donations engender political retribution — then enforce whatever laws are appropriate. It strikes me that any law that hopes to conceal political donations basically says, “I don’t want people _to not like me._ I have a fundamental right to make a profit from my political enemies. I do not want my political views to harm **me** in any way, even when my views are meant to harm others.” To hell with that. Laws should not be erected to protect against _thought crimes._ If I boycott a business, if I want not to give my money to someone I don’t like, that’s my choice as a consumer; if instead I vandalize the business or assault its owner, or harassing with hate mail, then I am breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/70 "2009-02-04T18:09:58Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I don’t think anyone here is disputing the _legality_ of the action; given the law, I don’t think the judge had any choice. It may be advisable to change the law, but that would have other complications. > > What we’re questioning is whether or not this practice is a good direction to take our political discourse. Whether it is _advisable_, both for the country as a whole and even for progressive social causes themselves. FWIW, I do agree (if it’s not clear from my other posts) I do agree that the site in the OP is douchebaggy, especially adding the phone numbers, if I don’t agree that it crosses the line into “this should be illegal.” I defend their right to make it known that the information exists however. A flashy page, with their stated mission, with direct links to the pages on the SOS site, I would have very little problem with. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/71 "2009-02-04T18:11:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or are you doing what I suspect you are doing, which is arguing that even if assholes use the information for inappropriate and illegal purposes, that’s OK as long as the assholes agree with you? If people break the law they should be punished by the system. Political donations are, by law, publically available. If someone uses that information to break the law they should be punished. My opinions on the cause behind the donation is irrelevant. If you don’t think that political donations should be public then get involved and get the law changed. Until then all donations are made public no matter what the cause. Do you think the law should be changed? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/72 "2009-02-04T18:13:36Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > The description of a pro-choice donor as a “supporter of baby-killers” is inflammatory language. It could be argued that it borders on slander. > > The stated mission from the website in the OP of donors to Prop 8 is “We want the country to know who gave the $36 million to the Yes on Proposition 8 campaign that ended same-sex marriage in California.” Is that inflammatory, or is that an accurate description? Upthread, it was suggested that voting yes was “vandalism” of people’s lives. I was working off that. “Larry J Flinders of Thistown, AL, who is employed at Floyd’s Menswear store, gave money to keep partial birth abortion legal. This a procedure in which [graphic, accurate description omitted]. Actions have consequences. Let Larry J Flinders know what you think of his support of this procedure.” Cool with that on a billboard a mile from Larry’s house? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/73 "2009-02-04T18:18:20Z")
I love how the Prop 8 martyrs have turned this into a poor-persecuted-Christians topic when they aren’t affected by the damned law at all. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/74 "2009-02-04T18:21:17Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > FWIW, I do agree (if it’s not clear from my other posts) I do agree that the site in the OP is douchebaggy, especially adding the phone numbers, if I don’t agree that it crosses the line into “this should be illegal.” > > I defend their right to make it known that the information exists however. A flashy page, with their stated mission, with direct links to the pages on the SOS site, I would have very little problem with. I don’ t think anyone here denies it’s legal. And I don’t think people are so upset announcing that they have the list. the issue is taking the list and publicizing it for purpose of shaming, and whether that is a good thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/75 "2009-02-04T18:22:48Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Upthread, it was suggested that voting yes was “vandalism” of people’s lives. I was working off that. > > “Larry J Flinders of Thistown, AL, who is employed at Floyd’s Menswear store, gave money to keep partial birth abortion legal. This a procedure in which [graphic, accurate description omitted]. Actions have consequences. Let Larry J Flinders know what you think of his support of this procedure.” > > Cool with that on a billboard a mile from Larry’s house? It depends what you mean by cool? I didsagree and would probably think the guy is a moral midget. But I wouldn’t vandalize the billboard or petition to get it taken down. There is a good chance I would not patronize Floyd’s Menswear either. That’s my perogative, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/76 "2009-02-04T18:26:21Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > [Mormon church vandalized.](http://blog.techfun.org/pics/churchvandalism1.jpg) > > [Catholic church vandalized.](http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=6584961) > > [Man gets probation for punching elderly Prop 8 supporters.](http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_11415631?IADID=Search-www.mercurynews.com-www.mercurynews.com) > > Now, I will readily admit that similar incidents abound on the other side - this is a heated topic. But it is the case that there is political vandalism and violence afoot in California right now. It’s worth pointing out that not a single one of those criminal acts was in any way related to the publishing of the names of Prop. 8 supporters. It’s also worth pointing out that, when these tactics were used against gay rights supporters, we didn’t whine like a bunch of fucking children about how unfair it was that our donations were public knowledge. Man up, you goddamned pussies, and stand behind your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/77 "2009-02-04T18:37:55Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > It depends what you mean by cool? Meaning you don’t think they’re doing anything wrong – not legally, but ethically. You regard it as a useful and healthy contribution to the national public dialogus. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/78 "2009-02-04T18:38:07Z")
I’m just terrified that someone on the SDMB here might find out my real name. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/79 "2009-02-04T18:44:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s worth pointing out that not a single one of those criminal acts was in any way related to the publishing of the names of Prop. 8 supporters. > > It’s also worth pointing out that, when these tactics were used against gay rights supporters, we didn’t whine like a bunch of fucking children about how unfair it was that our donations were public knowledge. Man up, you goddamned pussies, and stand behind your beliefs. So what, you think it can’t go the other way? There was that recent rape case in the Bay Area where it does seem that the victim was targeted because she was a lesbian - she had rainbow stickers on her car and her attackers employed anti-gay slurs as they were attacking her. That’s okay, though - she ought to just man up, in **Miller’s** world. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/80 "2009-02-04T18:50:36Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > That’s okay, though - she ought to just man up, in **Miller’s** world. Why is it that every time you have a nice, clean thread, someone just has to drag in a colossal strawman? That’s not what **Miller** wrote, it’s not what **Miller** meant , and you’re smart enough to know it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362.md?page=5)