# A public service: Names of Proposition 8 supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362 "2009-02-04T03:12:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/81 "2009-02-04T18:51:45Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Meaning you don’t think they’re doing anything wrong – not legally, but ethically. You regard it as a useful and healthy contribution to the national public dialogus. Then I am cool with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/82 "2009-02-04T18:54:41Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > So what, you think it can’t go the other way? There was that recent rape case in the Bay Area where it does seem that the victim was targeted because she was a lesbian - she had rainbow stickers on her car and her attackers employed anti-gay slurs as they were attacking her. > > That’s okay, though - she ought to just man up, in **Miller’s** world. She did “man up”, dummy, by putting the stickers on her car, and whatever else she might have done to advertise her sexuality. You’re going off the rails here by assuming that having your name published as a Yes on 8 donor is equivalent to being beaten and raped. What it is in fact equivalent to is the woman who made her lesbianism visible. In both cases, it’s simply information without action. When someone boycotts a business because the owner donated to Yes on 8, that’s equivalent to someone boycotting a business because the owner is gay. When someone beats a Yes on 8 donor with a tire iron, then _that_ will be equivalent to the rape case you cite, and it would be just as illegal and reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/83 "2009-02-04T18:56:53Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > So what, you think it can’t go the other way? There was that recent rape case in the Bay Area where it does seem that the victim was targeted because she was a lesbian - she had rainbow stickers on her car and her attackers employed anti-gay slurs as they were attacking her. > > That’s okay, though - she ought to just man up, in **Miller’s** world. I don’t even know what this is supposed to demonstrate. How does this relate to the topic of the OP? She was attacked for being openly gay. You think that people who donated to Prop. 8 should remain anonymous, so they don’t get attacked. What’s the comparison, here? That gay people should stay in the closet so they don’t get attacked? Do you honestly expect me to agree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/84 "2009-02-04T19:02:28Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Upthread, it was suggested that voting yes was “vandalism” of people’s lives. I was working off that. > > “Larry J Flinders of Thistown, AL, who is employed at Floyd’s Menswear store, gave money to keep partial birth abortion legal. This a procedure in which [graphic, accurate description omitted]. Actions have consequences. Let Larry J Flinders know what you think of his support of this procedure.” > > Cool with that on a billboard a mile from Larry’s house? Show me a political campaign group specifically, singularly and solely created for the support of the legalization of of elective “partial birth” abortions, as graphically described, and we’ll talk. If Larry J Flinders simply donated to Planned Parenthood, then that is an inflammatory and inaccurate description of the cause he donated money to, and no, that is not cool. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/85 "2009-02-04T19:06:20Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > So what, you think it can’t go the other way? There was that recent rape case in the Bay Area where it does seem that the victim was targeted because she was a lesbian… So what you’re saying is that we need laws prohibiting anybody from revealing their sexuality, so nobody can act upon that information? How about instead we craft some kind of law that prohibits people from raping any woman without her consent, regardless whether she’s a lesbian or not? Wait — we have that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/86 "2009-02-04T19:12:01Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > How about instead we craft some kind of law that prohibits people from raping any woman without her consent, regardless whether she’s a lesbian or not? Well, so long as consensual rape is still allowed, I guess I don’t have a problem with this idea. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_D\_oh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/839c29/32.png) [@Jane\_D\_oh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_D_oh)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/87 "2009-02-04T19:14:20Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > “Hi, my name is Eckern, and I just spent $1000 to make sure you’re denied the right to marry the person you love. I trust that won’t be a hindrance for us cooperating on this project?” A bit of an oversimplification, don’t you think? He could have said, “Hi, my name is Eckern and while I have religious beliefs that differ from yours, we’re not in church so they have nothing to do with how we will work together.” He actually said nothing. Why? Because he was able to separate his religious belief from his work. The two are separate and could have/should have remained separate. The notion that if you oppose gay marriage you must be homophobic or a hater is as ridiculous as any other blanket generalization out there. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/88 "2009-02-04T19:19:16Z")
> [@Jane\_D\_oh](#): > > The notion that if you oppose gay marriage you must be homophobic or a hater is as ridiculous as any other blanket generalization out there. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/89 "2009-02-04T19:23:37Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Then I am cool with it. While I disagree, I do respect your consitiency. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/90 "2009-02-04T19:28:05Z")
No - I was responding to the notion that people ought to stand behind their beliefs publicly. We all know there are risks inherent in doing so - in general we weigh these and proceed in various ways. This particular year this meant that my wife and I were outspoken enough when asked about our political preferences, but we did not place bumper stickers on our cars. We didn’t want our cars or even us to become targets from jerks from either side. **Miller** just blithely stated that people should live with the consequences of making their political preferences or other positions known - that’s mighty hard to do when those consequences get to be severe. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/91 "2009-02-04T19:30:31Z")
> [@Jane\_D\_oh](#): > > he was able to separate his religious belief from his work. Shame, though, that he couldn’t manage to separate his religious belief from some other person’s family life. The people he prevented from getting married, they don’t go to his church either, but their entire lives are changed. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/92 "2009-02-04T19:31:01Z")
> [@Jane\_D\_oh](#): > > Because he was able to separate his religious belief from his work. The two are separate and could have/should have remained separate. The notion that if you oppose gay marriage you must be homophobic or a hater is as ridiculous as any other blanket generalization out there. Jews and Muslims don’t eat pork. They haven’t pushed for a law to stop you eating it. This guy helped push a law through that directly effected lives. I can understand people being pissed at him. It **is** personal to gays, how can it not be? You don’t like gay marriage, good, don’t marry one. Apart from that it should be none of your damn business. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/93 "2009-02-04T19:36:58Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > These people need to learn that bigotry has consequences. What consequences do you see as deserving ? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/94 "2009-02-04T19:38:48Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > You don’t like gay marriage, good, don’t marry one. Apart from that it should be none of your damn business. Sorry. Marriage law is important public policy - we all have a stake in it and have earned participation in the debate. Nobody ever legitimately said gay people shouldn’t vote for or against change in divorce law, child custody law or other things - it is the same now, for better or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/95 "2009-02-04T19:42:58Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > **Miller** just blithely stated that people should live with the consequences of making their political preferences or other positions known - that’s mighty hard to do when those consequences get to be severe. Yeah, that’s the bitch about having values, isn’t it? Sometimes, it’s not easy to stand by them. But in this case, you have a convenient out - don’t donate money to political causes if you don’t have the moral courage to stand by your beliefs. I merely found it amusing that liberals seem to have no problem doing that, while conservatives do. What that says about liberals versus conservatives in general is left as an exercise to the reader. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/96 "2009-02-04T19:49:50Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Listen - I posted my original response to get people to think. Tactics being employed here can be similarly employed against them, or legislation can be passed to make them unavailable to all. > > Press this too much and the backlash may be worse than the original vote - much as the Prop 8 supporters are finding out now. > > It would be better, as observed earlier, to win over your opponents rather than vandalizing churches or pressuring their employment. You won’t win over everyone, but you’ll get enough fence sitters to prevail. > > Press this too far and the support you have in public might evaporate when people really have a chance to express a private opinion - the voting booth. We shall take your no doubt entirely sincere concern under advisement. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/97 "2009-02-04T19:50:06Z")
[QUOTE=Jane D’oh!] Because he was able to separate his religious belief from his work. [/QUOTE] Too bad he couldn’t manage to separate his religious beliefs from his participation in government. Separate his 'church from his “state”, if you will. [QUOTE=Jane D’oh!] The notion that if you oppose gay marriage you must be homophobic or a hater is as ridiculous as any other blanket generalization out there. [/QUOTE] Yeah, when you oppose and actively seek to destroy family units, you’re seen as ‘hating’ them. Crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/98 "2009-02-04T19:56:15Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Sorry. Marriage law is important public policy - we all have a stake in it and have earned participation in the debate. Sorry, you’re wrong. Being against gay marriage is exactly the same as being against interracial marriage. It makes you a grade-A shitheel. You can pretend it’s about language or history, but in reality, you think that people you find icky shouldn’t have the rights you do. That’s Unamerican, it’s cowardly and it’s completely without merit. It’s okay to withhold your money from bigots. I wouldn’t go to dentist who was a neo-nazi and I wouldn’t go to an accountant who thinks his particular brand of ignorant religious hate should be legislated into law specifically to remove the rights of people he dislikes. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/99 "2009-02-04T20:00:31Z")
> [@Jane\_D\_oh](#): > > The notion that if you oppose gay marriage you must be homophobic or a hater is as ridiculous as any other blanket generalization out there. There are no legitimate arguments for opposing gay marriage. The history argument is bullshit. Marriage used to be limited to people of the same race. It used to be a contract where women didn’t get a say. If you are against gay marriage you’re a fucking prejudiced piece of shit. I’d be happy to see an argument that actually had a single glob of merit if you have one. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362/100 "2009-02-04T20:08:11Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Show me a political campaign group specifically, singularly and solely created for the support of the legalization of of elective “partial birth” abortions, as graphically described, and we’ll talk. > > If Larry J Flinders simply donated to Planned Parenthood, then that is an inflammatory and inaccurate description of the cause he donated money to, and no, that is not cool. :rolleyes: Sigh. The point of a hypothetical such as mine is to extend someone else’s argument to an extreme example. If they maintain their argument, then you know you’re dealing with a basic difference in principles (such as **Gangster Octopus** and I have just concluded). From there, the conversation can proceed along general philosophical lines. If they don’t, then the difference is not one of principle, but of application. Whether or not there are any partial-birth-abortion-specific PAC is missing the point; it’s a controversial issue that one can easily imagine coming up on a ballot, and can easily imagine PACs being formed on both sides. Unless you’re contending that the issue would never be on a referendum, and no organizations would ever be formed to oppose it, you’re not moving the conversation forward. Fine then: pick any issue that social conservatives feel strongly about – abortion, gay adoption, whatever. Imagine them putting up billboards (or, hell, taking out TV ads) in which they frame the issue in the worst possible way (without technically lying) and then give the name and as much identifying information as the law permits of a person that advocated the progressive point of view on the topic (employer, address, children’s names … whatever the strictest reading of the law allows them to put out there). For maximum shaming effect, the idea is to make sure the person’s friends and family all know. And you don’t go after the biggest contributors: the idea is to pick on a few small-time nobodies. The rest will get the message. Oooh – here’s an idea. Find someone in a small rural town, preferrably a single adult male who holds a job working with children, and who has quietly given money over the years to a variety of gay-rights causes. Put his name on that billboard along with the causes he’s supported, and encourage his neighbors to ask him about it. I’m sure \*\*Miller \*\*would say that that goddamned pussy can man up and stand behind his beliefs. **Gangster Octopus** the same, though I think he’d express it more civilly. Do you agree? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-public-service-names-of-proposition-8-supporters/484362.md?page=6)