# A question about Christian beliefs. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2002, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397 "2002-06-22T04:38:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/61 "2002-06-26T18:30:38Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Kirkland, cool it. This is the second time I’ve warned you today. You don’t have to like Joe\_Cool, but you don’t need to froth at the mouth quite so much either. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/62 "2002-06-26T18:53:49Z")
**Joe\_Cool** , there was no trap built into my question. The trap lies in your own thinking. It’s easy to say “God says to believe this” or “the Bible tells us that”, but there are many, many different perspectives on the nature of God and the interpretation of the Bible. When you try and speak as if there is only one possible Biblical perspective on this issue, you invalidate the views of the other religions that disagree with yours. There are many ways the Bible can be interpreted, and the Bible is unclear on many of the issues that we face now, almost two thousand years after the events in the New Testament occurred. Can you explain why your views of the Bible are the only right interpretation, when so many faiths interpret it so differently? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > **How would I know why they all have different stances? Perhaps you should ask them instead of me.** I know why they all have different stances; the Bible can be interpreted in many ways. Now I want to know how you can be sure why your interpretation is right. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/63 "2002-06-26T19:12:09Z")
While **Kirkland** was intemperate in expressing his remarks, I have to laud his defense of his faith against **Joe** ’s misunderstandings of it. As an Episcopalian, I hold to some but not all of the beliefs he defended, and, quite frankly, **Joe** , I must inform you, as agapetically as possible, that your understandings of what we believe are quite far from the truth. And I am quite well aware that “Jesus, along with offering mercy, demanded obedience and repentance” (from your earlier post). I simply disagree with you as to what following Him entails for a wide variety of people. It’s _my_ obligation to follow Him to the best of my ability, carrying out His commandments in my life a best I can. Ditto for you, **Sister Coyote** , and anybody else you care to name. As **Captain Amazing** said, we differ in our interpretation of how we read Scripture – and yes, I try to follow it in my daily life, just as you and **Jersey Diamond** do. A slight hijack to the topic another thread might be enlightening on what I’m talking about. **December** posted a story in which it appeared that a judge in a gun-control-law case seemed to be informing the defendants and their lawyers to disregard the Constitution (in point of fact, no such thing was happening). IMHO, the following of Jesus’s commands is the “Constitution” – the basic law – of Christianity, to which the Ten Commandments, the Torah Law, Paul’s teachings, etc., must comply or else be ignored – intentionally, as being misapplications of the Law. In short, “thou shalt heal on the Sabbath” is the law because healing is what God desires, even if Torah prohibits work, including healing, on the Lord’s Day. If my words, or yours, turn a person from Christ, they are sinful, no matter how much they are grounded in Scripture; if they function to express God’s love and desire to have one come to know Him, then they are in accord with His will. Quite frankly, no matter how often and in what context you and others quote the passages in Leviticus and Paul, their function will not be to call the gay men and women of this board to repentance, but rather to turn them away from Christ. And that is a greater offense, in my estimation, than anything else you could do. If you like, I’ll be glad to discuss ecclesiological differences with you in another thread – I suspect **Monty** might have some comments on your I-believe-erroneous view of LDS doctrine as well. If you wish, open one. I’ll do my best to keep it from being rancorous and provide light rather than heat on our differences as well as our agreements. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/64 "2002-06-26T20:37:31Z")
Extremism in the defense of the truth is no vice. Cowardice in the face of evil is no virtue. ---
**Author:** ![Eran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Eran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eran)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/65 "2002-06-27T12:37:24Z")
> [@](#): > > No, I don’t consider Mormons to be a Christian church. The reason is that they don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. They believe him to be a created being, of equal stature as Satan. (and the church of latter day saints IS the mormon church) Two things. First, we do, in fact, believe in the divinity of Christ - a being separate from God but divine nonetheless. And Satan, even before he fell, was of lower stature than Christ. Second, there are no such things as the “Mormon Church” or the “Church of Latter-day Saints” - we are the Church of **Jesus Christ** of Latter-day Saints, although individula members are often referred to as Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/66 "2002-06-27T23:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > **Ah yes. the typical fundie bigot disclaimer.** Well, now…I know how fond you are of painting an entire group of people with one broad brush, but I recognize that there can be members of a group who do not necessarily hold to all the beliefs and philosophies of that group. > [@](#): > > **Wow, look. Utter ignorance from a fundie, whouda thunk it?** And of course, you’d be happier if I blurted out comments about things I know nothing about, the way you do. But everybody is ignorant. Some of us recognize the areas where we are ignorant, and try not to compound it. > [@](#): > > **And the bigot shows his true, horrid, Ku Klux Klan-like colors.** You know, your spitting venom got me angry at first, but you actually come off like a clown. Irrationality and foaming at the mouth, while entertaining, don’t help you make a point. > [@](#): > > **Of course, the term “Christian” means “a little Christ,” which could infer the same damn thing…** Every source I’ve been able to find says it means either “A follower of Christ” or “Christ-like”. I’m sure you know what you’re talking about though… :rolleyes: By the way, words **imply**. People **infer**. Doctor. > [@](#): > > **…must be wrong, no matter how stupid the person attacking them…** My thoughts exactly. > [@](#): > > **It would be idolatry only if Catholics worshipped the Saints as gods, which they/we do not.** Ok, let’s compare: In my worship of God, there are certain things that are characteristic of worship. I pray to God. I expect him to hear my prayers, regardless of time and place, and regardless of how many people might be praying simultaneously (He is infinite, after all), and he may respond to them. I believe that he is capable of performing miracles, and can influence events here on earth. Catholics: Pray to saints. Expect to be heard. I’ve never heard any discussion of St. Anthony’s schedule, so I assume he is in his office hearing prayers, 24/7? With nearly a billion Catholics in the world, Surely he would have to multitask in order to answer everybody’s prayers, right? Catholics expect their prayers to saints to be answered, expect saints to perform miracles _after their deaths_ (isn’t that a prerequisite for canonization?), and to influence events on earth. So they may not be worshipped as THE God, but they certainly seem to be some sort of demigod at the least. > [@](#): > > **Bullshit. The Church has never formally named Mary “Co-Redemptrix with Christ,” you arrogant liar.** I’ll show you my cites if you show me yours. “Beginning with Simeon’s prophecy, Mary intensely and mysteriously unites her life with Christ’s sorrowful mission: she was to become her Son’s faithful co-worker for the salvation of the human race” - Pope John Paul II ([cite](http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/0304-97/TITLES.html)) Co-Redemptrix & Mediatrix of All Graces([cite](http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/coredemptrix.asp)) “Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption; …Crucified spiritually with her crucified son (cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she “lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth” (Lumen Gentium, 58)…In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity…In fact, Mary’s role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son”([cite](http://www.immaculateheart.com/MaryOnLine/html/co-redemptrix.html)) Even though the pronouncement isn’t official, it likely will be soon, and the sentiment is there already. Even the Pope calls her that. By the way, nice way to represent your church. You must have been absent the day they taught humility in catechism. > [@](#): > > \*\*Oh goodie, standard fundie lie #1278.5. > > The Mass is not a re-sacrifice of Christ, it is a timeless re-presentation of the one and only sacrifice on Golgatha. Jesus died once, and only once. If you knew thing one about Catholicism, you wouldn’t make stupid statements like this. But clearly your knowledge of Catholicism comes from the sorta garbage “sources” commonly frequented by fundie pseudo-Christian bigots.\*\* Great. In that case, please explain to me the miracle of Transubstatiation, and also why the church excommunicated, imprisoned, and burned at the stake, people who denied that particular miracle. > [@](#): > > \*\*And agina, more bullshit. Read the Church’s documents on salvation. I recommend you start with Dominus Iesus (Lord Jesus). > > The church stresses Salvation by Grace. Now, we don’t fall for Martin Luther’s “faith alone” lie, but do not spread the utter fallacy that the Church does not teach salvation by grace.\*\* In other words, you agree with me. Catholics do not believe that all is done, that “it is finished” ([cite](http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn019.html#30)), and that more is necessary, in the form of the Church and its Sacraments. That’s cool, the way you restate my position in the form of an argument. It’s like a Bizarro version of Jeopardy! > [@](#): > > **More than whom? And you know, you prots have blood on your hands, too. And lets not forget your recent fundie ancestors, who lynched blacks and Jews, and Catholics in the name of “White Christian Morality,” and even today are prone to attack innocent gays, Christian or otherwise.** Not everybody who waves a cross is a Christian (see the “standard fundie disclaimer” you were bitching about earlier). But don’t worry, Protestants are just as embarrassed of the KKK as Catholics are of you. > [@](#): > > **And even today you Fundies are still working hard to deny groups you hate equal protection and recognition under the law.** Cite? > [@](#): > > **That is simply not true. Common fundamentalist anti-Catholic lie. Which seems to be your trade in life. How utterly pathetic.** I can’t get to my books at the moment, so I can’t show you a cite on this one. But rest assured, as soon as I’m done moving, I will. > [@](#): > > \*\*That is not what an indulgence is. not even close. Indulgences have nothing to do with damnation or slavation. They are not 'get out of hell free" cards. They do not alleviate the need to confess ones sins nor do they alleviate the risk of Hell for those who earn them. > > And the Church does not sell indulgences, the sale of indulgences was a major ecclessial error in the Middle Ages, and was shot down and put to a end during the Counter-Reformation.\*\* First, I’m glad you don’t deny that it happened. Even though that poses a problem with the Pope’s supposed infallibility. If he can’t be wrong, then how can he commit heresy? Which brings me to the point of Apostolic succession. The church’s source for the authority of the Pope’s chair is the supposed unbroken chain of succession from Peter to the current Pope. Of course, succession of the head of the church can hardly pass by murder, bribery, and political favors, can it? > [@](#): > > \*\*Why don’t you go to a Catholic website, and actually learn what you’re talking about before you spread your fundamentalist lies. \*\* Aside from the years I spent in the Catholic church, and the classes I took for RCIA, I get the rest of my information specifically from Catholic websites. Thanks for the tip, though. > [@](#): > > **No, the idea of “once saved always saved” is a joke. The mythical rapture, where the sky pixie grabs his gang just in time and helps sell a lot of crappy “Left Behind” books is a joke. The common fundamentalist worship of the King Jimbo Bible is a pathetic joke.** Yes, worship of the bible would be stupid. Good thing I don’t. And it’s funny that you think you’re hurting me by calling God a “sky pixie” and saying “Left Behind” is a joke. Pardon me while I go cry myself to sleep. :rolleyes: And you don’t accept that once saved, you remain saved? So you believe that you’re constantly being unsaved and resaved, every time you sin and go to confession? Wow, no wonder you’re so pissy. I would be too if I were under that kind of stress. > [@](#): > > \*\*What a piece of work you are, spreading lies seems to be your only point in life. You attack Christainity when you attack Catholicism, you hate and spit on gays. You are a perfect example of all that is evil about fundamentalism, a cancer on the body of Christ, and the body politic. > > Luckily time is a great version of chemotherapy, and people liek you and the lies you puish will burn away. Already the tide has trurned, your lies and misrepresentation no longer hold sway with the youths of our land, and your fringe cult has never been the dominant force in Christaintiy. > > Kirk \*\* Again, you’re definitely NOT the one to be throwing stones about “Hate.” You’re the one spouting attacks. You think I’m pathetically ignorant and demonizing the poor, oppressed Catholic Church? Prove me wrong. And you’re the future of humanity? Wow. In that case, I’d be glad to be the cancer. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/67 "2002-06-27T23:56:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Aside from the years I spent in the Catholic church, and the classes I took for RCIA, I get the rest of my information specifically from Catholic websites. Apparently you didn’t pay close enough attention, since you let rip a whopper like: > [@](#): > > Even though that poses a problem with the Pope’s supposed infallibility. The doctrine of papal infallibility applies only to those few statements made by the Pope when he is speaking _ex cathedra_, not to every word out of his mouth. Care to try again? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2002, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/68 "2002-06-27T23:58:28Z")
Not that anyone cares about my opinion, it is …finally…that its God’s position to judge if someone is a Christian or not. We’ll all find out after we die, theres no way of proving who is and isn’t right now. I think I am, but unless someone says they are an atheist, I can only assume they are a Chrsitian if they say they are. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/69 "2002-06-28T00:22:58Z")
Oh look, Jersey’s another stereotype embodied: the former “Catholic” whose so willing to be brainwashed by anti-Catholic fundamentalist lies because he clearly never undestood thre religion in the first place. He doesn’t even recognize that indulgences were an error, not a heresy, that the Pope’s infallibility only applies to specific doctrinal proclamations and doesn’t seem to understand that Transubstatiation makes present the one sacrifice, it does not re-sacrifice Christ. Perhaps if he were bright enough to read actual Catholic sources before running his mouth, he might actually say something true. But why should he risk breaking a perfect streak? ---
**Author:** ![Taran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Taran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taran)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/70 "2002-06-28T00:31:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*Oh look, Jersey’s another stereotype embodied: the former “Catholic” whose so willing to be brainwashed by anti-Catholic fundamentalist lies because he clearly never undestood thre religion in the first place. He doesn’t even recognize that indulgences were an error, not a heresy, that the Pope’s infallibility only applies to specific doctrinal proclamations and doesn’t seem to understand that Transubstatiation makes present the one sacrifice, it does not re-sacrifice Christ. > > Perhaps if he were bright enough to read actual Catholic sources before running his mouth, he might actually say something true. But why should he risk breaking a perfect streak? \*\* **Kirkland** , what are you trying to accomplish? Do you want to educate **JerseyDiamond** about Catholicism, so that she’ll have a better understanding of what Orthadox Catholicism is and isn’t? Are you trying to convince her that some of her beliefs are unfounded? Are you trying to get her to change her mind? If you want that, then **why in the name of God Almighty are you putting every obstacle available to you in her way?** ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/71 "2002-06-28T01:02:33Z")
Oops… forgot Jersey was a woman, sorry. For some reason, the nick sounds masculine. In my extensive experience (Polycarp can back up my credentials here whwen it comes to duking it out with anti-Catholics), there can be no education of people like Jersey, Taran. I’ve spent years… years… going around and around with the “Christians” who spread utter lies about Catholicism. It’s a waste of effort. I’ve wasted too much blood, sweat, effort and far, far too many tears on people like Jersey. Let her live out her life believing lies. No skin off my nose. Not any more. I shook that dust from my feet a long time ago. If she wants to spread lies and serve evil with her life, that’s her business. At the same time, I will not stand by and let her lies be posted withou saying something. But she is not deserving of the time it would take to dismantle and truly address every single point in her screed (the main advantage of the anti-Catholics is that it only takes a sentence to spread a lie… say the lie that “Catholics worship Mary” or “Catholics re-sacrifice Christ”… but it takes pages and pages to dismantle those lies and explain the truth). I no longer have the stamina for wasting large swaths of my life trying to explain Catholicism to people like Jersey, who do not seek truth, do not care about honesty. If she cared about the truth, she would run her statements by Catholic sources, such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or one of the bazillion apologetics websites out there, befor posting them. That she instead just regurgitates the words of the anti-Catholics who have indoctrinated her indicates that she is not going to be swayed. And in any case, I’m leaving to study at Oxford University tomorrow, won’t be on the Net for six weeks. No time to start what would be an extensive round of posts. And given the recent actions of the Church that are patently homophobic and bigotted, I don’t really care to actively defend that organization right now. But at the same time, loyalty, however strained, will not allow me to allow lies to be posted without some response. Loyalty is everything in this life. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/72 "2002-06-28T02:47:46Z")
Perhaps you have given up on **Jersey Diamond** , but I am sure that the Lord Jesus has not. Nor has He given up on the Popes, or Mary, or even you and me, **Kirkland1244**. Let’s be a bit more careful when we speak of His beloved children, shall we? ## Tris “This Christianity stuff is harder than you think.” ---
**Author:** ![Taran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Taran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taran)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/73 "2002-06-28T16:13:01Z")
Man. What **Triskadecamus** said. His response was even on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397/74 "2002-07-02T04:25:43Z")
First, that response was me, not Jerseydiamond. I forgot to change the login name. Second, PLDennison, Yes, I’d love to try again: I’m still looking for the reference, but there was, in fact, an ex cathedra papal bull calling the doctrine of papal infallibility both incorrect, and heresy. Resolve that. Third, Kirkland, It’s real easy to chalk it up to “brainwashed ex catholic”, but in case you didn’t realize it, there is a reason why I left the catholic church. What, you think it was just random? Think I was kidnapped by the evil protestant SWAT team and forced to believe anti RCC propaganda? I’m amazed at the stupidity and hostility that comes out of you. You’re really not doing the RCC any favors with your defense. For the record, my ability to post is going to be limited since I’m between connections. I’ll post the reference as soon as I find it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-christian-beliefs/115397.md?page=3)