# A question about comma usage **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 17, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862 "2007-11-17T20:59:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/1 "2007-11-17T20:59:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Before moving to Summerville, Texas_\*,\*\* the orangutan lived in Georgia, Monterrey, Laos\*\*,\*\* and Quebec.\* In the sentence above, are the blue and the red commas _both_ necessary, or just one, or neither? Also, not related to commas, but would the sentence > [@](#): > > The orangutan, before moving to Summerville, Texas, lived in Georgia, Monterrey, Laos, and Quebec. be just as correct from a grammatical standpoint? (I’m not asking which sounds better, just if they are both technically okay.) ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/2 "2007-11-17T21:05:09Z")
I like the first sentence better…it seems to flow easier. As far as commas, I am a veritable bear for them, and often have to go back and take out the extra, unnecessary ones, so I don’t know how good a judge I will be. As far as I can tell, your commas are fine. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/3 "2007-11-17T21:06:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] In the sentence above, are the blue and the red commas _both_ necessary, or just one, or neither? Also, not related to commas, but would the sentence be just as correct from a grammatical standpoint? (I’m not asking which sounds better, just if they are both technically okay.) [/QUOTE] The blue one is necessary, because it set’s off the clause “Before moving to Summerville, …” Adding in the Texas part doesn’t change the need for the comma. The red one is debateable. Some style manuals prefer to have the comma before the “and.” Some do not. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/4 "2007-11-17T21:08:45Z")
Prescriptivity-wise, I can’t help you, but to me removing this comma: > [@](#): > > Before moving to Summerville, Texas the orangutan lived in Georgia, Monterrey, Laos, and Quebec. just looks _really_ awkward. Oddly enough if you had taken out the Summerville, > [@](#): > > Before moving to Texas the orangutan lived in Georgia, Monterrey, Laos, and Quebec. looks decent, although still scans awkwardly, because I still want to make “Texas the orangutan” a noun group, a tendency which is even more pronounced when I read “Moving to Summerville, Texas the orangutan”. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/5 "2007-11-17T21:10:34Z")
Hmmmm, I am seriously considering changing my Username to “Texas the Orangutan.” I’ll sit one week on it and change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/6 "2007-11-17T21:13:35Z")
The red one depends on your style guide. The blue one is required because of the phrase (sorry, **DS** , it’s not a clause), but most style guides would use it anyway because of the state name. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/7 "2007-11-17T21:18:40Z")
I think I would prefer: “The orangutan had lived in Georgia, Monterrey, Laos, and Quebec, before moving to Summerville, Texas.” Although I doubt the first list is chronological, which I would prefer. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/8 "2007-11-17T21:22:06Z")
I would never use the second comma. Commas between items in a list are in place of the word “and” so having a comma and the word “and” is redundant. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/9 "2007-11-17T21:31:53Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] I would never use the second comma. Commas between items in a list are in place of the word “and” so having a comma and the word “and” is redundant. [/QUOTE] Nor would I, but as noted above this would depend on whose rules you’re following. The first one definitely is required. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/10 "2007-11-17T21:32:58Z")
I agree with the consensus so far. The blue comma is required; the red one is optional (depending on your favorite style guide.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/11 "2007-11-17T21:36:02Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] \*\*Commas between items in a list are in place of the word “and” \*\* so having a comma and the word “and” is redundant. [/QUOTE] (my bolding) Nitpick: the commas in the list given in the OP represent “and”, but they could just as easily represent “or”. (eg. “The orangutan may have lived in Monterrey, Ulan Bator or Timbuktu.”) ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/12 "2007-11-17T21:37:18Z")
The red comma is required in APA style, which specifies a comma before “and” in a series of 3 or more. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/13 "2007-11-17T21:45:08Z")
I tend to prefer the comma before “and” in a list, as it clarifies that the items are separate. “I enjoy a meal of bacon, eggs, and coffee” instead of “I enjoy a meal of bacon, eggs and coffee” because ‘eggs and coffee’ together is a pretty nasty combination. I don’t put my eggs _in_ my coffee. Sometimes, though, XXX and YYY do belong together: “I cooked meat loaf, macaroni and cheese, and cabbage.” If we take out the final comma, it appears that the cabbage is a part of the mac 'n cheese: “I cooked meat loaf, macaroni and cheese and cabbage.” Still, it is a personal preference, or one dictated by a style guide. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/14 "2007-11-17T21:52:40Z")
In UK English, the comma before an “and” is seen as a US thing. Personally I think it removes ambiguity, but a large number of my compatriots disagrees with me. The use of a comma between a placename and its greater enclosure (e.g. Paris, France) seems a very US thing. I think in most UK styles, one would avoid this construction by being more wordy: “Before moving to Summerville, a town in Texas, the orangutan lived in Georgia, Monterrey, Laos and Quebec.” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/15 "2007-11-17T22:18:19Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] In UK English, the comma before an “and” is seen as a US thing. Personally I think it removes ambiguity, but a large number of my compatriots disagrees with me. The use of a comma between a placename and its greater enclosure (e.g. Paris, France) seems a very US thing. I think in most UK styles, one would avoid this construction by being more wordy: “Before moving to Summerville, a town in Texas, the orangutan lived in Georgia, Monterrey, Laos and Quebec.” [/QUOTE] I didn’t know that. So what’s the correct way of writing a British address? Picking one at random off the net- 1, Railway Terrace, Derby, Derbyshire, DE1 2RU - would that be 1 Railway Terrace Derby Derbyshire DE1 2RU or are there commas? One English- or European- thing that I much prefer to the American style is dating. 17 November 2007 works much better than November 17, 2007 and it’s much better structured. The Anglo-Euro style goes from smallest increment (day) to larger (month) to largest (year) while ours goes from middle to smallest to largest- makes no sense. I’ve no real opinion on whether the time is 2:30 p.m. or 14:30 or 14.30, but I’d accept any of them if we could standardize the dating style. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/16 "2007-11-17T22:33:24Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] 1 Railway Terrace Derby Derbyshire DE1 2RU or are there commas? [/QUOTE] These days this would be perfectly acceptable. The use of the comma in addresses is dying out - but this has only been the case over the past couple of decades. However, that’s very different to the usage of the comma signifying a small place described by its enclosure in prose. I think the erosion of the former is actually a coincidence (possibly caused by addresses mainly being stored in databases). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/17 "2007-11-17T22:33:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] I didn’t know that. So what’s the correct way of writing a British address? Picking one at random off the net- 1, Railway Terrace, Derby, Derbyshire, DE1 2RU - would that be 1 Railway Terrace Derby Derbyshire DE1 2RU or are there commas? [/QUOTE] Town/city and county get separate lines, ie. 1 Railway Terrace Derby Derbyshire DE1 2RU Commas optional, but no commas is becoming the convention. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/18 "2007-11-17T22:43:00Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Town/city and county get separate lines, ie. 1 Railway Terrace Derby Derbyshire DE1 2RU Commas optional, but no commas is becoming the convention. [/QUOTE] Hmm. Just in case any Brits don’t know and are curious, our addresses are written like this: George Bush 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW Washington, DC 20500 The period after avenue is optional, as is the abbreviation (though that’s standard) while all states and districts and territories have two-letter abbreviations (though certainly you could write out “Washington, District of Columbia”, but nobody ever does). Increasingly we’re using an extra four digits after the zip code 20500-2016 (or whatever) if known. City and state/district/territory are almost always on the same line, comma optional but usual. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/19 "2007-11-17T23:12:03Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Town/city and county get separate lines, ie. 1 Railway Terrace Derby Derbyshire DE1 2RU Commas optional, but no commas is becoming the convention. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I missed that. However, the county is optional too these days, and the postcode often lives on the same line as the city, so also common would be: 1 Railway Terrace Derby DE1 2RU ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2007, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862/20 "2007-11-17T23:22:13Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Yeah, I missed that. However, the county is optional too these days,… [/QUOTE] Damn you, beat me to one of my pet peeves, people including counties which are either incorrect or simply no longer exist, such as Middlesex. [QUOTE=Sampiro] One English- or European- thing that I much prefer to the American style is dating. 17 November 2007 works much better than November 17, 2007 and it’s much better structured. The Anglo-Euro style goes from smallest increment (day) to larger (month) to largest (year) while ours goes from middle to smallest to largest- makes no sense. [/QUOTE] While our DD/MM/YYYY format is fully established, the longhand writing of dates is not quite as clear-cut. In this situation, I like to quote one major British newspaper’s [style guide](http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,,184835,00.html): > [@The Guardian](#): > > Our style is July 21 2008 (no commas), and has been since the first issue of the Manchester Guardian on May 5 1821 (it is occasionally alleged that putting month before date in this way is an “Americanisation”). [QUOTE=jjimm] I think in most UK styles, one would avoid this construction by being more wordy: “Before moving to Summerville, a town in Texas, the orangutan lived in Georgia, Monterrey, Laos and Quebec.” [/QUOTE] _Before the move to Texas, the orangutan lived in…'_, and in another sentence identify Summerville as a Texan town. And avoid the order of other locations given, because Georgia becomes ambiguous. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-comma-usage/426862.md?page=2)