# A question about David Brin's Uplift Universe **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 4, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602 "2011-10-04T20:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/1 "2011-10-04T20:13:07Z")
I’ve heard a bit about this series and the interesting premise made me give one of the novels, ‘Sundiver’, a go. While I found it entertaining enough it don’t really feel the need to read the rest of the series but there is one question that left me wondering. Is it ever revealed by the author whether humanity was indeed Uplifted or achieved sentience on their own? Put me in the ‘fingers crossed for the latter’ camp! On a sidenote first came across Brin from a short-story of his in the alternate history collection, ‘Hitler Victorious’. Even the title of the story, ‘Thor Versus Captain America’, put me off but despite the eye-rolling premise it turned out to an excellent story with one of the best endings in any media anywhere _(you can tell I liked it)_. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/2 "2011-10-04T20:24:09Z")
None of the other books have revealed whether humans were Uplifted or not. But really, I found _Startide Rising_ and _The Uplift War_ more enjoyable than _Sundiver_, and they’re both stand-alone. (Well, the plotline of _Startide Rising_ is picked up in the _Brightness Reef_ trilogy, but close enough.) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/3 "2011-10-04T20:28:21Z")
In **Startide Rising** , it’s said that humans uplifted themselves, a fact that other races find hard to swallow. I think the intention was that humans were not uplifted The concept of Uplift meant that the uplifted race had to serve their patrons for some sizable amount of time. Since there is no record of such a thing in human history, it would mean humans were not uplifted. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/4 "2011-10-04T20:43:54Z")
It is highly unlikely the humans were uplifted. Uplifting a race is a source of prestige and power (and free slaves), so it would be very strange for an uplifted race to go unclaimed. As the others have said, Sundiver is the least engaging of the Uplift books and IMHO Startide Rising is the best. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/5 "2011-10-04T21:08:59Z")
It has been a heck of along time since I read these, but I seem to recall that there were hints or speculations that perhaps humans had been uplifted, or at least had begun to be, had been set on the path as it were, way back, but that our patron race had somehow disappeared from the scene before the period of servitude had begun. Isn’t it the case that the other intelligent races somehow find a place for humanity in the ‘family tree’ of uplifted species (where relationships are reckoned according to who uplifted who)? I am going to agree that _Startide Rising_ is better than _Sundiver_, but most of Brin’s stuff is a lot of fun (although I found _Earth_ and _Heaven’s Reach_ disappointing). ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/6 "2011-10-04T22:51:07Z")
It has been a long while since I read them, but I thought the very gist of them was that Humans were considered “beneath” the other races because we were not uplifted but rather evolved on our own, something most of the other races considered impossible. That was kinda the whole point of the Gorillas (IIRC) selecting another race to continue with their Uplift - that from that point on Humanity was tied into a relationship with that other race and we’d kinda have to be accepted as a socially acceptable and uplift capable species. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/7 "2011-10-04T23:38:23Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > I’ve heard a bit about this series and the interesting premise made me give one of the novels, ‘Sundiver’, a go. > > While I found it entertaining enough it don’t really feel the need to read the rest of the series but there is one question that left me wondering. > > Is it ever revealed by the author whether humanity was indeed Uplifted or achieved sentience on their own? Put me in the ‘fingers crossed for the latter’ camp! > > On a sidenote first came across Brin from a short-story of his in the alternate history collection, ‘Hitler Victorious’. Even the title of the story, ‘Thor Versus Captain America’, put me off but despite the eye-rolling premise it turned out to an excellent story with one of the best endings in any media anywhere _(you can tell I liked it)_. The question is left unanswered - human patriots take it as given that humans uplifted themselves, galactic traditionalists take it as given that humans were uplifted and abandoned. There are indications that point each way - certainly there’s no evidence of aliens on Earth, but on the other hand, it’s weird that Earth was left alone so long (possibly indicating a conspiracy to cover up evidence of the ‘crime’ of abandoning a client race). Agree that “Thor Vs Captain America” is terrific. It’s available online at Brin’s website. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/8 "2011-10-05T00:02:56Z")
I found it amusing that there was an alien species that sort of resembled tall, white-haired, bearded humans who were trying to claim that they were our Uplifters, but had kept it secret. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/9 "2011-10-05T00:08:20Z")
While reading the section of Asimov’s autobiography in which he remarks that graduate students gain reflected glory from their advisor, and advisors get status from having a large number of successful students, I had a sudden suspicion of how Dr. Brin arrived at the idea of the Patron/Client system in the uplift series. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/10 "2011-10-05T00:12:26Z")
It was pretty well established that human uplifted themselves because of the reaction of the Progenitor fleet. Given that the Progenitors were the only _other_ known self-Uplifted species, and that their fleet of completely-sealed super-ultimate-ships immediately took an interest in humans, well… (Sadly, no one ever got a chance to prove it because the angry big established factions took this as a threat tot heir power and immediately sttacked the human explorer vessel.) Granted, some believe humans were a forgotten branch of the aforementioned ancient race of awesome. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/11 "2011-10-05T00:59:37Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > It has been a long while since I read them, but I thought the very gist of them was that Humans were considered “beneath” the other races because we were not uplifted but rather evolved on our own, something most of the other races considered impossible. > > That was kinda the whole point of the Gorillas (IIRC) selecting another race to continue with their Uplift - that from that point on Humanity was tied into a relationship with that other race and we’d kinda have to be accepted as a socially acceptable and uplift capable species. Only to those who cared. The races who didn’t care that we were already due Patron status were the ones chasing after Seeker and giving Earth grief, for the most part. The gorillas’ choice did force the Thennanin to recognize us although they weren’t exactly against us beforehand, but it also forced them to become our allies against the races that were about to lay siege to Earth. If memory serves. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/12 "2011-10-05T01:15:41Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > … The gorillas’ choice did force the Thennanin to recognize us although they weren’t exactly against us beforehand, but it also forced them to become our allies against the races that were about to lay siege to Earth. If memory serves. That’s it. [spoiler]The prestige of gaining a new client species (gorillas) gave one faction of the Thennanin enough political clout to influence the Thennanin policies. They’d been neutral toward the Earthlings… but now needed gorilla genetic stock from Earth. Which was interdicted by the races opposed to the Earthlings. Hence, to stay in power because of their new client species they needed to support the Earthlings. Also, presumably they realized that if the Earthlings were overwhelmed by their enemies, one of those enemy races would seize the gorillas (& chimps & dolphins & humans & others implied to be ready for uplift) as clients.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/13 "2011-10-05T03:00:07Z")
These books drove me crazy. Brin set up this marvelous universe, then set the majority of the novels in backwaters, with the protagonists having to hide from the rest of the species. To me it’s like setting a novel in Manhattan but containing most of the scenes to what’s happening inside a broomcloset. :rolleyes: He wrote a second trilogy (I think), where I had hopes that he was finally going to focus on the movers and shakers of the galactic politic… but no, he had to (again!) focus on a society where the people had to hide their existence. I got pissed, put the book aside, then decided to give it another chance. Then I realized that a large part of the book involved children, causing me to throw it away again. I never finished the first, can’t even remember the name of the books. Great concept, lousy execution. At least for me - others obviously loved them. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/14 "2011-10-05T03:11:31Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > To me it’s like setting a novel in Manhattan but containing most of the scenes to what’s happening inside a broomcloset. :rolleyes: If only there was another major fantasy series with a spectacular universe that started in a broomcloset! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ciggswar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Ciggswar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ciggswar)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/15 "2011-10-05T03:30:28Z")
Other races being smarter in wisdom as education, would think twice about interferance with us humans, we have a fatal flaw that gives us power over other races more advanced they fear us. Achieved sentience not likely, humanity was indeed Uplifted yes more likely from a distance, a safe distance! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/16 "2011-10-05T03:39:17Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > These books drove me crazy. Brin set up this marvelous universe, then set the majority of the novels in backwaters, with the protagonists having to hide from the rest of the species. To me it’s like setting a novel in Manhattan but containing most of the scenes to what’s happening inside a broomcloset. :rolleyes: How the heck do you convincingly write about the mainstream of Galactic society? It’s going to be completely impenetrable. This is why none of Bank’s Culture novels are about life in the Culture–it’s always about some outsider or defector or what have you. What would you write about that would make sense to your readers? Whatever you imagine, it’s gonna suck. And so, the Galactic Milieu can’t be the main focus, it’s a backdrop from which you can pull whatever you imagine. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/17 "2011-10-05T03:54:17Z")
You can write about the movers and shakers of that society. IIRC, there were factions, some stronger than others, all of them involved in the galactic milieu. Base your story on _those_ people, not on a bunch of kids on a damaged planet where everybody wants to avoid the greater society. In other words, why set up this fantastic universe then constantly have your main characters constantly _hide_ from it? And it wasn’t once - it was every book after _Sundiver_. Once is fine, two times is OK, three times is just plain irritating. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/18 "2011-10-05T03:55:56Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > If only there was another major fantasy series with a spectacular universe that started in a broomcloset! 😛 Can’t recall the series (Narnia? Harry Potter?), but I bet it didn’t _stay_ in the broomcloset. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/19 "2011-10-05T07:33:56Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > While I found it entertaining enough it don’t really feel the need to read the rest of the series but there is one question that left me wondering. _Sundiver_ really felt like the most dated, “Golden Age”-y of the Uplift series. Also didn’t really like the twist, it felt stupid. I started with _Startide Rising_ and then the Uplift Storm trilogy and the Uplift War, they all are much more … expansive in feeling. _Sundiver_ feels cramped (probably intentional, I guess). I recommend the rest of the series. > [@](#): > > Is it ever revealed by the author whether humanity was indeed Uplifted or achieved sentience on their own? Put me in the ‘fingers crossed for the latter’ camp! Nothing’s ever finally settled, but the “secret patrons” theory is given a substantial blow in the Uplift Trilogywhen it is revealed that one set of candidates, the Danikenite patrons the Rothen, are actually just predatory opportunists Personally, I think it’s “Humans Uplifted themselves, but the conditions to allow that (an entire Galactic Arm held ‘fallow’ for an unusual amount of time) may have been deliberately caused by some unknown agency” I like the trilogy books best because Brin really wrote some awesome aliens (_traeki_ are my favourite), but the Uplifted Dolphins from _Startide_ and Chimps from _War_ are cool too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602/20 "2011-10-05T07:39:25Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Isn’t it the case that the other intelligent races somehow find a place for humanity in the ‘family tree’ of uplifted species (where relationships are reckoned according to who uplifted who)? Yes, but we get a place because we, ourselves, have uplifted Chimps and Dolphins before Contact, so are (grudgingly) accorded the status of Patrons and Heads of our own Clan. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-david-brins-uplift-universe/598602.md?page=2)