# A question about full immersion baptism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 17, 2016, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104 "2016-07-17T05:34:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/41 "2016-07-18T23:00:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Seems like that’s missing something. Does not the participant have to desire to be baptized? Not in all sects. Those who believe in infant baptism, for example, obviously do not require desire on the part of the participant who might be only minutes old and thus clueless about everything. > [@](#): > > If not, I could see a zealous believer exploiting such a loophole to try and save everyone. When I was a kid my county had a scandal where some, shall we say, highly enthused and motivated Christians were trying to trick local Jewish kids into being baptised, then claiming they weren’t Jewish anymore and now had to attend their church. Needless to say, that did not go over well with the Jewish parents. Or a lot of other people. So yeah, that sort of thing does happen but in general it’s probably not common. And if you don’t believe in baptism then even if someone tries that stunt you just ignore it and get on with your life. (Well, there might be some angry shouting prior to the “get on with it”, but you know what I mean.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/42 "2016-07-19T00:16:31Z")
There have also been some controversies involving the LDS church, which allows baptism-by-proxy: That is, one LDS dunks another LDS, but it counts as being a baptism of some other person. And if we’re sharing anecdotes of unconventional baptisms, I was baptized by my parents in the bathroom sink. I was a few months old at the time; Mom and Dad were trying to schedule a more conventional baptism, but it was really hard to get all of the kinfolks’ schedules to work. Then one night, though, Mom left the window in my room open, and the temperature dropped precipitously overnight. By the time Mom woke up to check on me, I was already turning blue from cold. So as soon as they got me warmed up again (or maybe while they were doing so), they baptized me themselves. When we finally got all the family together a few weeks after that, we had a nice little party with the priest and everything, but it didn’t mean anything sacramentally, because I was already baptized. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/43 "2016-07-19T02:16:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Seems like that’s missing something. Does not the participant have to desire to be baptized? > > If not, I could see a zealous believer exploiting such a loophole to try and save everyone. If you’re too old for infant baptism, yes. From the official catechism of the Catholic Church > [@](#): > > 1247 Since the beginning of the Church, adult Baptism is the common practice where the proclamation of the Gospel is still new. The catechumenate (preparation for Baptism) therefore occupies an important place. This initiation into Christian faith and life should dispose the catechumen to receive the gift of God in Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist. > > 1248 The catechumenate, or formation of catechumens, aims at bringing their conversion and faith to maturity, in response to the divine initiative and in union with an ecclesial community. The catechumenate is to be “a formation in the whole Christian life . . . during which the disciples will be joined to Christ their teacher. The catechumens should be properly initiated into the mystery of salvation and the practice of the evangelical virtues, and they should be introduced into the life of faith, liturgy, and charity of the People of God by successive sacred rites.” Interestingly enough, although both pouring and immersion are allowed by church rules, immersion is indicated as the preferred method. Was immersion ever the more practiced form of baptism? ---
**Author:** ![Nefario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/59ef9b/32.png) [@Nefario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nefario)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/44 "2016-07-19T02:29:31Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > Well, no. The New Testament is pretty explicit that Jesus did NOT baptize with water. Both in John the Baptist’s preaching (I indeed baptize you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost - Mark 1:8) and in John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples did.) John 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where _he spent some time with them, and baptized_. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26 _They came to John_ and said to him, “Rabbi, _that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing_, and everyone is going to him.” John 4:1 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. The commentaries I read suppose that Jesus initially baptized followers personally. Later he preached and his disciples performed baptisms. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/45 "2016-07-19T13:42:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There have also been some controversies involving the LDS church, which allows baptism-by-proxy: That is, one LDS dunks another LDS, but it counts as being a baptism of some other person. The controversy is in the now unauthorized proxy baptism for deceased victims of the Holocaust. The LDS theology holds that a living person may function as a stand-in for the deceased and that the deceased will either accept or reject the ceremony carried out on his or her behalf. There is no proxy baptism in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on behalf of a living person. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/46 "2016-07-19T14:37:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Seems like that’s missing something. Does not the participant have to desire to be baptized? > > If not, I could see a zealous believer exploiting such a loophole to try and save everyone. And see also the [Mortara case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortara_case), a 19th century _cause célèbre_ in which the Catholic maid of the Jewish Mortara family living in the Papal States performed an “emergency baptism” on their very sick infant son Edgardo–then several years after the baby recovered, the baptism was discovered and the authorities in the Papal States said the child was now a Catholic and could not (by the laws of the Papal States) be raised by a Jewish family. Edgardo was taken from the Mortaras when he was six years old and raised by the Church, eventually becoming a Catholic priest. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/47 "2016-07-19T15:16:26Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The controversy is in the now unauthorized proxy baptism for deceased victims of the Holocaust. > > The LDS theology holds that a living person may function as a stand-in for the deceased and that the deceased will either accept or reject the ceremony carried out on his or her behalf. There is no proxy baptism in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on behalf of a living person. I may have mentioned this before. My parents grandparents, aunts and uncles are buried on the grounds of a Catholic seminary, along with many priests and nuns. When I was doing genealogy in Salt Lake Ciry, I found a book stating that everyone in the cemetery had been baptized by proxy into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It made me smile of think of all the Catholic religious who would have been surprised by this. It doesn’t bother me; I guess somebody thought she was doing a good deed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/48 "2016-07-19T16:25:26Z")
Thank you for the further information, **Monty**. I didn’t follow all of the details of the case when it was news. ---
**Author:** ![janis\_and\_c0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janis_and_c0/32/21_2.png) [@janis\_and\_c0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/janis_and_c0)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/49 "2016-07-19T17:04:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Comments like this are a lot less useful without specifying the sect. In some churches, being fully immersed doesn’t matter, either. There are probably others where the location does matter. We’ve already heard that the closest equivalent Jewish ritual does have requirements placed on the location, which are sometimes met with “a funnel on the roof and prayers for rain”. That is why I posted the link, as it contained more info about the church 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/50 "2016-07-19T23:45:14Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Sects that require baptism of mature people are called “born again”…they believe that it has to be done as an adult, and that a hair wash at a font isn’t the right way. “An adult” isn’t necessary in some sects. I was raised Southern Baptist, and was baptized when I was IIRC 9 years old. What was important was the idea that I was old enough to request it and to understand the nature of baptism and what it symbolized. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/51 "2016-07-20T13:47:24Z")
The Catholic Church has a similar “age of reason” rule for First Communion (I think the age is usually considered to be about 7 years by default, though it can be shifted in individual cases), and another somewhat older age for confirmation, where you’re expected to have a greater degree of understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/52 "2016-07-23T18:54:30Z")
I once witnessed some people getting full immersion baptisms one Saturday morning in a park’s swimming pool. I think they were Baptists. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/53 "2016-07-23T22:31:28Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > “An adult” isn’t necessary in some sects. I was raised Southern Baptist, and was baptized when I was IIRC 9 years old. What was important was the idea that I was old enough to request it and to understand the nature of baptism and what it symbolized. Exactly. I was 5. They quizzed me, and I understood. And, yes, I really understood–I wasn’t just parroting answers. I’m glad, too, since it completely predated my aquaphobia. It’s much better than the Pentecostal Church I went to that basically peer pressured me into getting baptized. Though I did appreciate the special water-proof zip up robe. No need to have brought a change of clothes. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/54 "2016-07-23T22:35:40Z")
Oh, yeah. Infant baptism. But that has to require the parents’ permission, right? I mean, the relevant Scriptures have stuff about how it is the belief of the parent that saves the child before the age of accountability. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/55 "2016-07-24T07:06:15Z")
As the Mortara case referred to up thread shows, parental consent is not a requirement for infant baptism in Catholic belief. In fact sometimes it’s the reverse–I know Catholic grandparents upset that their lapsed Catholic adult children are not having their own children baptized, and the grandparents have taken the opportunity when alone with the infant grandchildren to perform a baptism, knowing well that the parents would not consent. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/56 "2016-07-24T10:39:02Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > As the Mortara case referred to up thread shows, parental consent is not a requirement for infant baptism in Catholic belief. In fact sometimes it’s the reverse–I know Catholic grandparents upset that their lapsed Catholic adult children are not having their own children baptized, and the grandparents have taken the opportunity when alone with the infant grandchildren to perform a baptism, knowing well that the parents would not consent. With a priest involved, or at home? Because if a priest was involved his bishop should have slapped him from here to Orion, and if no priest was involved those kids won’t be raised Catholic any more than if they hadn’t been baptized and no Church records of the baptism exist. Way to piss off the kid’s parents and push the whole lot further away. Or do the kids not even know they’ve been baptized? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/57 "2016-07-25T00:57:50Z")
Yup. As a matter of canon law an infant will only be baptised if the infant’s parents request it and, even then, only if the priest or bishop forms at least “a well-founded hope” that the child will be brought up in the church. Infant baptisms performed in breach of this rule are regarded as valid, but illicit. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/58 "2016-07-25T02:10:40Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > With a priest involved, or at home? Because if a priest was involved his bishop should have slapped him from here to Orion, and if no priest was involved those kids won’t be raised Catholic any more than if they hadn’t been baptized and no Church records of the baptism exist. Way to piss off the kid’s parents and push the whole lot further away. Or do the kids not even know they’ve been baptized? This gets intra-secty, but is in the same ballpark: family member (Jew) married non-Jew, who didn’t convert but was comfortable entering and creating a Jewish upbringing, which she has most admirably done over the decades. The _mohel_ [pronounced "moyel], the foreskin-cutter guy on the baby’s eighth day–not necessarily a Rabbi, but obviously trained physically and (presumably) pious, trusted with this important “baptism” into the Covenant. So he does his thing, says the pre- and post prayers and psalms. Family happy Jews, ditto kid. To the Orthodox, it don’t mean squat. To boot, the mohel (Orthodox) skipped the sentence, the Main Sentence, the actual phrase of “blah-blah welcome aboard”), and Family and Kid, to this day, don’t know it. So shit happens. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/59 "2016-07-25T02:39:13Z")
Less common for LDS than it used to be. In areas without a baptismal font people will be baptized any body of water that is convenient. In my mother’s congregation in Cleveland Ohio, circa 1944, they were baptized in the local Y swimming pool and then after the baptism the whole congregation would have a pool party. As I understand it some other pool patrons complained about swimming in other people sins… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104/60 "2016-07-25T04:19:43Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > As the Mortara case referred to up thread shows, parental consent is not a requirement for infant baptism in Catholic belief. In fact sometimes it’s the reverse–I know Catholic grandparents upset that their lapsed Catholic adult children are not having their own children baptized, and the grandparents have taken the opportunity when alone with the infant grandchildren to perform a baptism, knowing well that the parents would not consent. That strikes me as a very good way to end up with absolutely no contact between the grandparents and the parents, not to mention the parents cutting off all contact between the grands and the kid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-full-immersion-baptism/760104.md?page=4)