# A Question About German **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 25, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161 "2005-12-25T14:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/1 "2005-12-25T14:15:29Z")
Does the German language have a word or phrase like “ain’t”, i.e. a widely used non-standard word or phrase that drives teachers up the wall? And in English, a semi-literate person instead of saying “I have no money.” might say “I ain’t got no money.” Does German have similar constructions? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/2 "2005-12-25T15:15:34Z")
Native English speaker who studied German for many years checking in. I can’t think of anything that corresponds to the double negative in English, or to “ain’t”, although working-class people are often portrayed in literature as using a dialect. These dialects are usually manifested by differences in pronunciation rather than by following a different set of grammatical rules. The only thing I can think of that’s more similar to English examples you gave is the gradual loss of the genitive case following certain prepositions that seems to be occurring. Instead, the dative, or indrect objective case gets used. This is probably happening because the genitive and dative cases already are merged together in the feminine, and also because the distinction probably doesn’t aid in conveying meaning. However, I’d say that’s more on the level using “who” or “whom” in English, rather than “I ain’t got no money”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/3 "2005-12-25T15:31:55Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > I can’t think of anything that corresponds to the double negative in English, or to “ain’t”, although working-class people are often portrayed in literature as using a dialect. These dialects are usually manifested by differences in pronunciation rather than by following a different set of grammatical rules. Das bayerische Mädchen sagte, ‘Küss mir, Kasimir!’ Kasimir sagte, ‘Nicht “mir”, “_mich!_”’ Das bayerische Mädchen sagte, ‘Küss mir, Kasi_mich!_’ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/4 "2005-12-25T15:57:26Z")
Troopers like to call cadence “Licht, shwo, Drie …” For some reason the Shwo (which I am misspelling) drove some German officers nuts. They could not let on or the troops would do it even more. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/5 "2005-12-25T16:28:39Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Troopers like to call cadence “Licht, shwo, Drie …” For some reason the Shwo (which I am misspelling) drove some German officers nuts. They could not let on or the troops would do it even more. You mean “zwo” (pronounced something like “tsvo”) instead of “zwei” for the number 2? This is fairly common, because the pronunciation of “zwei” resembles that of “drei” (3), which results in the danger of mishearings. I guess the unwillingness of many German speakers to use the genitive case could be an example for what the OP is looking for. Many prepositions require the genitive case, such as _wegen_ (because of). In colloquial spoken German, it is usually replaced with the dative case:_wegen dem Regen_ instead of _wegen des Regens_ (because of the rain). Another example for this are awkward genitive-like constructions using the dative: _Meinem Vater sein Mantel_ instead of _Meines Vaters Mantel_ (my father’s coat). There was a popular book on grammatical errors in contemporary German a few years ago, entitled _Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod_. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/6 "2005-12-25T16:43:18Z")
**schnitte** I meant to mention the “dative-possessive” you mentioned, i.e., “Mein Grossvater sein Bauernhof”. I’ve seen this construction given as an example of something very young children would say. Is it also used by adults in some dialects? It used to be seen in early modern English as well. I play guitar and like to try playing transcriptions of Renaissance lute music, and I’m sure I’ve seen pieces with titles like, “The Earl Of HisNibsVille His Galliard” (The Earl of HisNibsVille’s Galliard) ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/7 "2005-12-25T18:39:57Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > **schnitte** I meant to mention the “dative-possessive” you mentioned, i.e., “Mein Grossvater sein Bauernhof”. I’ve seen this construction given as an example of something very young children would say. Is it also used by adults in some dialects? I can only speak for Southern German dialects (Swabian, where I grew up, and Franconian, where I attend university), but it is indeed common among adults. Most people are aware that it is wrong, but the genitive is indeed becoming extinct in spoken everyday language - although it’s still standard in written German, and most people who don’t use it in speech will use it in writing, for example in their letters. I don’t think it’s a matter of regional dialects; I guess it’s more a question of differences between spoken and written style. Maybe similar to French _fût_ instead of _avoir été_ - people know the other form is better, and they use it in writing, but not in speech, unless it on formal occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/8 "2005-12-25T19:19:33Z")
The most frequent annoying nonstandardism employed when _trying_ to write standard German is the _Deppenapostroph_ IMO (the German cousin of the greengrocer’s apostrophe). _Depp_=idiot, with apologies to the actor. A lot of other nonstandard grammatical usages are parts of dialects, i.e. perfectly OK when speaking dialect but indicative of a lack of education when used by the same person’s standard German speaking social persona. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/9 "2005-12-26T10:21:47Z")
I might be misunderstanding your question, but Berlin dialect is full of phrases that drive non-Berliners, and teachers in Berlin up the wall (so to speak). “Wa?” meaning “ **Nicht** wahr?” is one that comes to mind. “Du bist Amerikaner, wa?” I do know that Berliners have an odd way of telling time that only they understand…viertel Elf (quarter 11) does not meant 10:45, it actually means 10:15 (quarter of the way to eleven). “Kurz vor halb neun” means shortly before half nine, meaning, almost 8:30. Native speaking Germans have problems when they ask Berliners what time it is. Berliners also say “krieg” instead of “bekommen” (get). “Ich kriege Geld.” But having spent most of my time in Berlin, it is hard for me to determine what is just dialect, and what is more universal. Ya’ll know what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![Enterprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/76d3ee/32.png) [@Enterprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enterprise)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/10 "2005-12-26T13:00:22Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > I might be misunderstanding your question, but Berlin dialect is full of phrases that drive non-Berliners, and teachers in Berlin up the wall (so to speak). > > “Wa?” meaning “ **Nicht** wahr?” is one that comes to mind. “Du bist Amerikaner, wa?” There’s a similar phenomenon in Saxonian dialect – “nu”, meaning “yes”. The usual reaction of non-Saxonian Germans is to interpret the “nu” as being the short form of “nun”, “now”, but also “what now?”. Addressing a question at a Saxonian and having him answer in the affirmative “nu” leads to frequent misunderstandings. > [@](#): > > I do know that Berliners have an odd way of telling time that only they understand…viertel Elf (quarter 11) does not meant 10:45, it actually means 10:15 (quarter of the way to eleven). “Kurz vor halb neun” means shortly before half nine, meaning, almost 8:30. Native speaking Germans have problems when they ask Berliners what time it is. The “viertel Elf” thing for quarter past ten seems a East German feature also shared by Saxonian. “Kurz vor halb neun”, on the other hand, is standard German as far as I can see – I’ve not seen a German dialect that doesn’t use it, anyway. > [@](#): > > Berliners also say “krieg” instead of “bekommen” (get). “Ich kriege Geld.” “kriegen” is non-standard but widespread. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/11 "2005-12-26T14:50:44Z")
The “viertel Elf” thing (and the fact that East Germans tend to see it as an East German peculiarity) is intersting, as it is common in South Germany as well (and I always thought it was distinctive for this region). It’s perefectly logical, though: viertel elf = quarter past ten, because the eleventh hour is one-quarter full It follows the same rules as halb elf (10:30) and dreiviertel elf (10:45). Of course it causes confusion with most other Western European languages, which count the half hours as half past the last hour, not half to the next one. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/12 "2005-12-26T15:03:20Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > It follows the same rules as halb elf (10:30)… A fascinating discussion all around! It must make for interesting reading of Tolkien, though, with people wondering what the connection of Elrond to 10:30 might be! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-german/337161/13 "2005-12-26T17:29:38Z")
How about the gradual disappearance of ‘e’ from the first person present tense? ich hab’ … ich geh’ … ich mach’ … Not being a native speaker, I’m not sure how colloquial that is considered, and if it rivals “ain’t” for annoying-the-teacher value.