# A question about Hajj **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760 "2011-12-10T19:16:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/21 "2011-12-11T15:29:55Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I > How long do I have to go before I can pack for Mecca? Do I then have tests on my . Something not mentioned so far, to go to Mecca specifically at the time of Hajj requires a Hajj visa, not just being a muslim. There’s a quota per country based on the number of muslims and a lottery system. You might wait more than 10 years to be allotted a Hajj visa, but if you just wanted to go to Mecca at any other time of year you could go within days of converting. (all just as I understand from my reading, not a muslim etc etc) ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/22 "2011-12-11T16:49:34Z")
That’s going to be a rate limiting factor, then. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/23 "2011-12-11T16:55:59Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > And as I said before, I am unwilling to lie. The all woman tour group is unusual, and I bet that there is a married couple escorting them as there is a law against unescorted women in Saudi Arabia, or so it was explained to me when I wanted to fly over and just tour there about 10 years ago [not hajj, just tour the cities and some dig sites.] I was just mentioning it as an option for a Muslim woman; I was not suggesting you lie. From what the book I referenced said, it was not at all unusual to have a women’s group touring Mecca; as much as the Saudis restrict women, they do not go so far as to prevent them from practicing their religion. But then again, I’m hardly an expert. I’m just repeating the experiences of the woman in the book. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/24 "2011-12-12T02:59:49Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Something not mentioned so far, to go to Mecca specifically at the time of Hajj requires a Hajj visa, not just being a muslim. There’s a quota per country based on the number of muslims and a lottery system. You might wait more than 10 years to be allotted a Hajj visa, but if you just wanted to go to Mecca at any other time of year you could go within days of converting. > > (all just as I understand from my reading, not a muslim etc etc) There Hajj the Major pilgrimage and then there is Umera the minor pilgrimage which can be carried out at any time. You need a visa for that as well and while it is easier to get, you cannot be sure about it. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/25 "2011-12-12T03:57:53Z")
As is discussed in this thread, at most one-tenth of the Moslems in the world can ever expect to go on a hajj, sheerly given the absolute limit on the number of people in Mecca: > **[is going on hajj pilgrimage now an expected life event for all Mideastern...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=628146)** > > given the cheap short range airplane tickets nowadays, can pretty much everybody in the Middle East and Egypt afford to save up money for the hajj? Or are there large groups of people there who don’t expect to ever do the hajj because of minimal... ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/26 "2011-12-12T05:36:57Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Really? Yes, really. > [@](#): > > You find it OK that someone would do a false conversion, and then go into a situation that is physically dangerous, not to mention somewhat illegal in the laws of the country in question? I never said, nor implied, such. Also, a single woman going on the Hajj absent an accompanying male relative is not illegal, as shown above. And, how dangerous can the Hajj be, what with the millions of people who’ve made it safely? How about next time, _you_ don’t put words in my mouth? ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/27 "2011-12-12T18:07:39Z")
Given that only one-tenth of the people who have a religious obligation to perform the hajj ever get to do so, is the habit of US troops using “Haji” as the name for random Muslims as dickish as calling an unintelligent person “genius”? Mocking them for something that can’t have? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/28 "2011-12-12T18:27:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Yes, really. > > I never said, nor implied, such. Also, a single woman going on the Hajj absent an accompanying male relative is not illegal, as shown above. And, how dangerous can the Hajj be, what with the millions of people who’ve made it safely? > > How about next time, _you_ don’t put words in my mouth? How about you not determining that a pasty white ferengi in a wheelchair is perfectly safe wandering around in Saudi Arabia alone … and can hajj perfectly safely in these rather anti american times. I would actually be much safer getting journalists credits and trying to arrange a visit to Mecca off season with a government escort after the current war is settled. [I should have gone for a visit back in college in the 80s when I could have gone with my anthro professor when I had the chance, just not the money. I could have tried to get a loan from my parents or someone.] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/29 "2011-12-12T19:43:18Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > How about you not determining that a pasty white ferengi in a wheelchair is perfectly safe wandering around in Saudi Arabia alone … and can hajj perfectly safely in these rather anti american times. As far as I know, going on Hajj is generally pretty safe. Obviously, whenever you have a large number of people, there are crime and safety concerns, and in fact, there’s been an increase in crime in Mecca recently, but the Saudis are doing their best to crack down on crime. Generally, as long as you’re aware of yourself and your possessions, make sure you stay well hydrated, don’t drink unbottled water, stay with your guide, follow both posted and verbal warnings and advice from safety personnel, etc., and you should be fine. All standard precautions you should take while traveling. Special accommodations can be made for pilgrims in wheelchairs. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/30 "2011-12-12T20:13:43Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > How about you not determining that a pasty white ferengi in a wheelchair is perfectly safe wandering around in Saudi Arabia alone … and can hajj perfectly safely in these rather anti american times. What does any of this have to do with being a woman, indeed, according to the discussion, a Muslim woman? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/31 "2011-12-12T20:48:21Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > What should I have answered … I can’t go because I would rip my clothing off and dance naked at al Qaaba and defile the area? You jest, but for real in pagan times women used to do rituals around the Ka‘bah naked. Some of the texts of their religious chants from these rituals have been preserved. **aruvqan,** I respect your integrity. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/32 "2011-12-12T23:16:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What does any of this have to do with being a woman, indeed, according to the discussion, a Muslim woman? Scroll up, this ferengi pasty white gimp was discussing conversion to islam to go on hajj. I pointed out that it would be unsafe for me, and frequently solo travel of any female in islamic countries is illegal - they need a male to ‘escort’ them. A female is generally not allowed to be alone with nonfamily non husband males. I would really hate to fake a conversion to islam, to travel with a strange man not related or married to me to Mecca just to get tossed into the slammer for adultery. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/33 "2011-12-12T23:40:43Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > How about you not determining that a pasty white ferengi in a wheelchair is perfectly safe wandering around in Saudi Arabia alone … and can hajj perfectly safely in these rather anti american times. > [@Acsenray](#): > > What does any of this have to do with being a woman, indeed, according to the discussion, a Muslim woman? > [@aruvqan](#): > > Scroll up, this ferengi pasty white gimp was discussing conversion to islam to go on hajj. I pointed out that it would be unsafe for me, and frequently solo travel of any female in islamic countries is illegal - they need a male to ‘escort’ them. A female is generally not allowed to be alone with nonfamily non husband males. > > I would really hate to fake a conversion to islam, to travel with a strange man not related or married to me to Mecca just to get tossed into the slammer for adultery. When you say [Ferengi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi) (a greedy alien race in Star Trek), do you mean [Farang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang) (a westerner in Thai)? Cause you’re summoning up a very odd vision in my head. Can we stick to the OP, please. I was asking about a genuine conversion from the get-go. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/34 "2011-12-12T23:41:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What does any of this have to do with being a woman, indeed, according to the discussion, a Muslim woman? Absolutley nothing. It has everything to do with the way she’s convinced the Hajj is done, regardless of the facts of the matter. > [@aruvqan](#): > > Scroll up, this ferengi pasty white gimp was discussing conversion to islam to go on hajj. I pointed out that it would be unsafe for me, and frequently solo travel of any female in islamic countries is illegal - they need a male to ‘escort’ them. A female is generally not allowed to be alone with nonfamily non husband males. > > I would really hate to fake a conversion to islam, to travel with a strange man not related or married to me to Mecca just to get tossed into the slammer for adultery. > > :rolleyes: How many times do you have to be told that the way you are describing the Hajj is absolutely not the way it is? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/35 "2011-12-12T23:54:01Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > … married women do not go travelling around the middle east, especially not on religious pilgrimage with a man not her husband, This is false. Entirely false. > [@](#): > > and women do not travel around the middle east alone [if they know what is good for them, especially when they are so white they pretty much glow in the dark.] Many women travel in Middle East and many Middle Easterners are very white skinned as can be seen by the many lebanese who have moved to Europe and the Americas and are seen as perfectly white. Please do not promote disinformation and ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/36 "2011-12-12T23:59:01Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Scroll up, this ferengi pasty white gimp was discussing conversion to islam to go on hajj. I pointed out that it would be unsafe for me, and frequently solo travel of any female in islamic countries is illegal - they need a male to ‘escort’ them. A female is generally not allowed to be alone with nonfamily non husband males. > > …, to travel with a strange man not related or married to me to Mecca just to get tossed into the slammer for adultery. > > :rolleyes: You should save your roll eyes for yourself as you are making ignorant incorrect statements. It is not illegal to travel alone as a woman in Islamic countries, even in Saudi Arabia. You are confusing the worst stories you have heard about the Saudi with all of the Islamic world, this is a falsehood and you should try to learn some truth. And ferengi is a term from the Star Trek films. It tells us of the quality of your informations. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/37 "2011-12-13T00:13:12Z")
If you’re on the hajj, you’re probably not going to be alone. Here’s the Saudi Embassy’s rules for getting a Hajj visa. [http://www.saudiembassy.net/services/hajj\_requirements.aspx](http://www.saudiembassy.net/services/hajj_requirements.aspx) > [@](#): > > All women are required to travel for Hajj with a Mahram (relative…somebody you’re not legally permitted to marry). Proof of kinship must be submitted with the application form. Women over the age of forty-five (45) may travel without a Mahram with an organized group, They must, however submits a no objection letter from her husband, son or brother authorizing her to travel for Hajj with the named group. This letter should be notarized. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/38 "2011-12-13T01:18:27Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > When you say [Ferengi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi) (a greedy alien race in Star Trek), do you mean [Farang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang) (a westerner in Thai)? Cause you’re summoning up a very odd vision in my head. Gene Roddenberry got the term “Ferengi” from the Amharic equivalent of the term “Farang.” Variations of the term – Ferengi, Farang, Firani, Phiringi – are known in most of the countries all the way from North Africa to Indonesia. It variously means “outsider,” “stranger,” “foreigner,” “European,” “white person,” “American,” and other terms. In Bengali, “Phiringi” can mean any or all of these things, depending on the context. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/39 "2011-12-13T01:24:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Gene Roddenberry got the term “Ferengi” from the Amharic equivalent of the term “Farang.” Variations of the term – Ferengi, Farang, Firani, Phiringi – are known in most of the countries all the way from North Africa to Indonesia. It variously means “outsider,” “stranger,” “foreigner,” “European,” “white person,” “American,” and other terms. In Bengali, “Phiringi” can mean any or all of these things, depending on the context. As long as I don’t have to rub her ears, I’m cool. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760/40 "2011-12-13T04:14:21Z")
It comes from the Arabic word for the Franks. Since the Franks were the main European nationality who invaded Palestine, Syria, Egypt, etc. in the Crusades, their name became generalized for European Christians. In Arabic, _Ifranj_=the Franks and _Ifranji_=Frankish; also _Firanjah_=land of the Franks, Europe. In Persian the form of the word is _Farang_ or \*Fereng \*(the Persian language has the sound of /g/ but Arabic doesn’t and uses j there instead). The Thai, Hindi, Bengali, and Star Trek uses of the word are all borrowed from the Persian _Ferengi_ ‘European Christian’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hajj/605760.md?page=3)