# A question about Heaven and Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936 "2005-07-24T17:23:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrJimsus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@MrJimsus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrJimsus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/1 "2005-07-24T17:23:56Z")
Hello SD, I’m a long time reader but thought of this question the other day and decided it needed addressing on the site I know I can trust to give insightful ideas. Anyone is welcome to give their thoughts but I’m specifically addressing this question to anyone who believes in both Heaven and Hell (please define what they mean in your beliefs) So lets say you have brothers in our example. One lives an exemplary life and goes to Heaven (we will call him Bob) the other at one time caught his wife cheating and murdered the man she was cheating on him with (we will call him Tom). Now I was raised to believe Bob would goes to Heaven and Tom goes to Hell. Here is the paradox however. If Heaven is an eternal reward for Bob how can it be so if he will never see his brother Tom again? Knowing if he is not in Heaven he must be in Hell wouldn’t that take at least some of the glory out of Heaven? I’m curious to hear any ideas on this or if anyone has ever heard any religious point of view on this basic idea. Thanks. Jimsus ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/2 "2005-07-24T17:37:15Z")
When my father died, religious relatives comforted my Mom by saying there’s passages in the Bible saying that one is reunited with their family, so he had to have gone to heaven even though he was an atheist, since she was going there. Yeah, I realize all the logical problems with that, but I didn’t wish to prevent my Mom from feeling better, so I didn’t say anything. If anybody knows what Bible verses my relatives may have been referring to (assuming they weren’t making stuff up to comfort my Mom), that might help the debate. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/3 "2005-07-24T17:49:01Z")
Oi. Actually understanding Heaven and Hell is probably impossible, with all the attendent confusion our limited minds can possess. Suffice it to say that we don’t know everything about either, or really much of anything about either. Come to think of it, I’m going to go away now and think for a few days about what I need to say here. This is not at all easy to explain. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/4 "2005-07-24T18:12:25Z")
The Catholic church teaches that we mortals do not know who goes to Hell, or indeed if anyone does. There are some people whom we officially hold to be in Heaven: These are the canonized saints. There are presumed to be a great deal more people who are in Heaven, but whom the Pope has never canonized: At any funeral, the priest officiating will generally speculate that the deceased is among this number. There may be some souls in Purgatory, who are not yet in Heaven, but who are assured that they eventually will be, but we mortals have no way of knowing who or how many these are, or how long they stay (the medieval Church, or members of it, often claimed such knowledge, but this is now discredited). And there may (or may not) currently be some human souls in Hell, but we know not. God’s ways are not man’s ways, and His mercy is infinite. So it’s quite possible that, despite his sin, Tom ended up in Heaven, too. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/5 "2005-07-24T19:00:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Catholic church teaches that we mortals do not know who goes to Hell, or indeed if anyone does. There are some people whom we officially hold to be in Heaven: These are the canonized saints. There are presumed to be a great deal more people who are in Heaven, but whom the Pope has never canonized: At any funeral, the priest officiating will generally speculate that the deceased is among this number. There may be some souls in Purgatory, who are not yet in Heaven, but who are assured that they eventually will be, but we mortals have no way of knowing who or how many these are, or how long they stay (the medieval Church, or members of it, often claimed such knowledge, but this is now discredited). And there may (or may not) currently be some human souls in Hell, but we know not. God’s ways are not man’s ways, and His mercy is infinite. So it’s quite possible that, despite his sin, Tom ended up in Heaven, too. Theoretically per the RCC even I can end up in heaven. I was baptised RCC. If I confess all sins to a RCC priest and drop dead immediately after, I will end up in Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/6 "2005-07-25T13:23:27Z")
There is a passage in Isaiah which says that in the New Creation (known in Jewish thought as “the Age to Come”) things will be so wonderful that “the former things shall no longer come to mind”. Some have interpreted this to mean that those in Heaven will not remember those in Hell. I totally object to this as I believe it makes God to be a faker who has to erase hard truths from the knowledge of His redeemed people. Basically, whatever Hell is, and I don’t believe it is Eternal Conscious Torment in the traditional sense, it is totally fair & totally compatable with the Love of God (thus I find the Eastern Orthodox view of Hellfire as the Glory of God as experienced by those who hate Him to be the most palatable). Whatever the future state of the Blessed Souls entails, I believe it includes full knowledge and understanding. Therefore, the Blessed will objectively recognize that their Damned loved ones are experiencing the fair result of how they lived. I do not rule out the possibility that the Damned may very well be allowed to fade out of existence or be reconciled eventually back to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/7 "2005-07-25T17:39:45Z")
> [@](#): > > If I confess all sins to a RCC priest and drop dead immediately after, I will end up in Heaven. Indeed, you would have to be guilty of mortal sin not to. And it’s not that easy to commit one. I personally, am of the opinion that you actually have to be _really_ bad to not go to heaven. I amn also of the opinion that there are more than a few people in this world who sadly meet this definition and there always have been. Murderers, terrrorists, tyrants… I would not wish to be in their shoes come the day of Judgement. And it has been thus for all of human history. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/8 "2005-07-25T20:19:34Z")
I come from a rather vague and imprecise theological background, but as far as I coudl tell, the main reason heaven was supposed to be great was because God was there, and everybody could bask in his presence. If this is enough to make people happly _all_ the time, then it clearly must have some kind of emotion-altering effect on the persons effected. So, I don’t know if Bob would forget Tom, but as a result of being high on heaven, it wouldn’t bother him much either way. ---
**Author:** ![MrJimsus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@MrJimsus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrJimsus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/9 "2005-07-25T23:46:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So, I don’t know if Bob would forget Tom, but as a result of being high on heaven, it wouldn’t bother him much either way. This bothers me, not your reply but the idea. I was raised Catholic but stopped believing years ago. Recently I started thinking about religion again and realised even if I could get past some points I don’t agree with the uncertainty of questions like this keep me away. What bothers me is the idea you are putting forth seems too similar, to me anyway, to brainwashing someone. Say a cult that convinces you that your family doesn’t really care about you anymore so you should not think about them that kind of thing. I think the concept of hell just doesn’t sit well with me, hence asking this question. I’ve said this to a few people who did believe in hell (as in the eternal fire and brimstone hell). “You know I think after 400million years of horrible burning torture even Hitler would learn his lesson.” I just don’t believe there is anything that could be done in at the very most 120 year time span that would justify punishment for eternity. Jimsus ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/10 "2005-07-26T01:15:05Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I totally object to this as I believe it makes God to be a faker who has to erase hard truths from the knowledge of His redeemed people. Oh, it gets even better. One of the reasons evil exists is because he gave us free will. There is no evil in heaven, so apparently no free will either. Wonderful. And I don’t know, spending 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years basking in God’s glory sounds kind of boring to me. Especially if I don’t have my free will. Will God let us opt out of eternity? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/11 "2005-07-26T01:30:29Z")
> [@MrJimsus](#): > > Hello SD, I’m a long time reader but thought of this question the other day and decided it needed addressing on the site I know I can trust to give insightful ideas. > > Anyone is welcome to give their thoughts but I’m specifically addressing this question to anyone who believes in both Heaven and Hell (please define what they mean in your beliefs) > > So lets say you have brothers in our example. One lives an exemplary life and goes to Heaven (we will call him Bob) the other at one time caught his wife cheating and murdered the man she was cheating on him with (we will call him Tom). Now I was raised to believe Bob would goes to Heaven and Tom goes to Hell. Here is the paradox however. If Heaven is an eternal reward for Bob how can it be so if he will never see his brother Tom again? Knowing if he is not in Heaven he must be in Hell wouldn’t that take at least some of the glory out of Heaven? > > I’m curious to hear any ideas on this or if anyone has ever heard any religious point of view on this basic idea. Thanks. > > Jimsus I question whether either exists. However, assuming Heaven exists the popular view is that your soul is guaranteed eternal bliss. Therefore I think the brother in Heaven will either not remember that he had a brother or will be happy that he is in Hell. ---
**Author:** ![theJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@theJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theJoy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/12 "2005-07-26T06:46:37Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Oh, it gets even better. One of the reasons evil exists is because he gave us free will. There is no evil in heaven, so apparently no free will either. something else that has always bothered me regarding the idea of heaven is this: if one is given the means to fullfill any and every desire they have, wouldn’t that be equal to deciding to simply be void of any desires at all? to respond to the OP, i find your example very much analogous to when people suggest that _what goes around comes around_. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/13 "2005-07-26T12:03:57Z")
C S Lewis touches on this subject in one of the incidents in “The Great Divorce”. Paraphrasing, those who reject heaven lose the power to hold those who accept it to emotional ransom. There comes a point at which joy is no longer “at the mercy of frowns and sighs”. I suppose that the heaven-bound one would gain the objectivity to see that his brother chose his fate for himself. The character who is guiding the narrator says something like “It sounds grand to say you’ll accept no salvation that leaves even one soul outside. But watch that sophistry, or you’ll make a Dog in the Manger the tyrant of the universe.” Granted that ol’ Jack is not the be-all and end-all, he has a habit of making sense, and I think he does on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/14 "2005-07-26T12:24:27Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > C S Lewis touches on this subject in one of the incidents in “The Great Divorce”. Paraphrasing, those who reject heaven lose the power to hold those who accept it to emotional ransom. There comes a point at which joy is no longer “at the mercy of frowns and sighs”. I suppose that the heaven-bound one would gain the objectivity to see that his brother chose his fate for himself. The character who is guiding the narrator says something like “It sounds grand to say you’ll accept no salvation that leaves even one soul outside. But watch that sophistry, or you’ll make a Dog in the Manger the tyrant of the universe.” > > Granted that ol’ Jack is not the be-all and end-all, he has a habit of making sense, and I think he does on this issue. The guiding character in The Great Divorce btw is Scottish preacher/novelist George MacDonald who was a Universalist, which is brought up as a remote possibility but not a certainty in TGD. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/15 "2005-07-26T12:28:46Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Oh, it gets even better. One of the reasons evil exists is because he gave us free will. There is no evil in heaven, so apparently no free will either. > > Wonderful. > > And I don’t know, spending 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years basking in God’s glory sounds kind of boring to me. Especially if I don’t have my free will. > > Will God let us opt out of eternity? Except the No Evil=No Free Will is NOT what C’tian doctrine teaches, but rather that Free Will ALLOWS the POSSIBILITY to choose evil. The Heavenly state however will be for those who have overcome in the struggle against Evil, therefore they are freed from the Struggle. And considering that God’s Glory is reflected throughout every aspect of Creation, part of basking in God’s Glory will be in experiencing and learning about the entire ever-spreading Creation of God. Eternity won’t be long enough. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/16 "2005-07-27T10:16:16Z")
And to add to that, the certainty that you no longer need to consult your conscience before doing anything: “You cannot now cherish a wish which ought not to be wished”, to quote the Angel in _The Dream of Gerontius_. Anything I want to do it is now right for me to want to do! Earthside, only sociopaths get to think like that… imagine knowing that it was the literal truth, and not a sign of insanity. ---
**Author:** ![LimLim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@LimLim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LimLim)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/17 "2005-08-03T13:27:18Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > . . .Therefore I think the brother in Heaven will either not remember that he had a brother or will be happy that he is in Hell Wouldn’t that be kinda sinful ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/18 "2005-08-03T13:55:18Z")
Before Christianity became politicised by Constantine in the 4th century, a prolific Christian scholar in the 3rd century by the name of Origen writing to a Greek philosopher had this to say, > [@Celsus](#): > > The Stoics, indeed, hold that, when the strongest of the elements prevails, all things shall be turned into fire. But our belief is, that the Word shall prevail over the entire rational creation, and change every soul into his own perfection…for although in the diseases and wounds of the body, there are some which no medical skill can cure, yet we hold that in the mind there is no evil so strong that it may not be overcome by the Supreme Word and God. For stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that swells in Him, and the healing He applies, according to the will of God to every man. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: ‘My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent’… **.consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the name of the Lord, and serve Him with one consent;** also that all contemptuous reproach shall be taken away, and there shall be no longer any injustice, or vain speech, or a deceitful tongue And to quote the Apostle Paul > [@1 Corinthians 15:19-28](#): > > If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. > But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. > For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. > For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. > But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. > Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. > For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. > The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. > For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. > And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Please note the very first line in the above quote. I think that pretty well addresses the dilemna presented by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/19 "2005-08-03T17:07:34Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Oh, it gets even better. One of the reasons evil exists is because he gave us free will. There is no evil in heaven, so apparently no free will either. > > Wonderful. But part of the reason we choose evil here on earth is because of fear, uncertainty and all the things that cloud our judgment (through a glass darkly), but then we shall be in the presence of God and see things clearly. We will see that there is no reason to choose anything but His will. Jesus was true God and true man, and had the free will to sin, but He didn’t because His will was so in tune with God’s. When He was tempted (there’s that fear again) He asked that God’s will be done regardless of how frightening it was. We may fail to do that here, but in heaven where there is no fear we will exercise our free will in concert with God’s will. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/20 "2005-08-04T14:46:11Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I question whether either exists. However, assuming Heaven exists the popular view is that your soul is guaranteed eternal bliss. Therefore I think the brother in Heaven will either not remember that he had a brother or will be happy that he is in Hell. That’s not what I was taught in Christian School. (Which I was forced to attend grades eight through twelve, but that’s another thread.) They pointed to Jesus’ story of Lazarus (not the guy raised from the dead) and the rich man. Lazarus, poor but righteous bum, was sent to heaven when he died, while the rich man found himself cast into hell. The story says he looked up from hell and could see Lazarus cuddled in the bosom of Abraham. He pleads for Lazarus to give him a drop of water, or at least go back to earth and save his brothers from coming to that horrible place. Lazarus tells him no to both requests. My teacher told us that this story clearly indicates that those in heaven will be able to watch the suffering of those in hell and (gloat?) communicate with them. And, of course, that those roasting in hell will be able to watch everyone having a grand old time in heaven. (This really seemed to please her-- that those who had scoffed at her witnessing would be shown for eternity that She Was Right.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936.md?page=2)