# A question about Heaven and Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936 "2005-07-24T17:23:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/21 "2005-08-04T15:23:24Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > That’s not what I was taught in Christian School. (Which I was forced to attend grades eight through twelve, but that’s another thread.) > > They pointed to Jesus’ story of Lazarus (not the guy raised from the dead) and the rich man. Lazarus, poor but righteous bum, was sent to heaven when he died, while the rich man found himself cast into hell. The story says he looked up from hell and could see Lazarus cuddled in the bosom of Abraham. He pleads for Lazarus to give him a drop of water, or at least go back to earth and save his brothers from coming to that horrible place. Lazarus tells him no to both requests. > > My teacher told us that this story clearly indicates that those in heaven will be able to watch the suffering of those in hell and (gloat?) communicate with them. And, of course, that those roasting in hell will be able to watch everyone having a grand old time in heaven. (This really seemed to please her-- that those who had scoffed at her witnessing would be shown for eternity that She Was Right.) Well, Sunday school teachers say lots of things and the Bible contains quite a bit of moralistic literature. It seems to me to be all hypothetical in any case, heaven and hell being human inventions, and I like my idea better. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/22 "2005-08-04T16:11:24Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > My teacher told us that this story clearly indicates that those in heaven will be able to watch the suffering of those in hell Well, it seems clear to me that describing what the afterlife is like was _not_ Jesus’s main point and intention in telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus; so I don’t think that’s a necessary conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![hiebram](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5fc32e/32.png) [@hiebram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hiebram)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/23 "2005-08-04T23:55:29Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > …I find the Eastern Orthodox view of Hellfire as the Glory of God as experienced by those who hate Him to be the most palatable… Huh. What if Heaven and Hell are the same place, and it’s just your perception that determines whether you’re in paradise or not? I recall several examples from my youth of being in a place or situation that was really not that bad, but since I had previously decided that I didn’t want to be there, I was miserable. Being confronted by God for all eternity, knowing that you don’t live up to the standard, and refusing to change your ways. You’d be pretty miserable, no? Like a five-year-old at a family reunion. Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/24 "2005-08-05T13:58:00Z")
This again is reminiscent of the judgement of Gerontius in the poem I mentioned above (written by Cardinal Newman and hence on sound Catholic theological ground, though IANAC). Gerontius experiences the undiluted presence of God for a single instant and is at once torn between two equally powerful desires: to remain in the presence of God for eternity, and to be removed infinitely far from Him to be spared the unbearable awareness of his own filthy state. Accordingly, he is taken off to Purgatory to have the latter urge washed out of him so that he can experience the former without hindrance. By this model - and I doubt that any human model can do justice to the truth - the hell-bound one would experience nothing but horror, and Purgatory would be useless since there would be nothing left once his repugnance for God had been cleansed away; and the heaven-bound one would experience only joy. ---
**Author:** ![Corrvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@Corrvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corrvin)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/25 "2005-08-07T10:17:26Z")
Back to Lewis again-- in _The Last Battle_, people of different beliefs found themselves in a stable; those who were “true believers” discovered that it was the gateway to Paradise, while those who were not were unable to see anything beyond the stable-- but they were both in the same place. So if Bob the good brother and Tom the bad brother both die, wouldn’t it be possible for Bob and Tom to be in the same place, but for Bob to be conscious of the presence of God (i.e. in Heaven, basking in His glory, blah blah) and Tom to be unable to perceive God (i.e. in Hell, which I’ve heard defined as being eternally separated from the Divine)? The two would be able to interact with each other but Bob would be getting his reward while Tom was not. Not to mention, if you were in a place where people were able to have a really awesome experience from which YOU were shut out\*, wouldn’t that be quite a punishment? Corrvin \*I seem to remember a certain party where everyone but me was quite inebriated, but that’s another story ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/26 "2005-08-07T12:47:06Z")
> [@LimLim](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by David Simmons > > . . .Therefore I think the brother in Heaven will either not remember that he had a brother or\*\* will be happy that he is in Hell\*\* > > Wouldn’t that be kinda sinful I’ve heard over and over and over that we can’t judge God’s actions or purposes by our standards. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/27 "2005-08-07T13:00:52Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I’ve heard over and over and over that we can’t judge God’s actions or purposes by our standards. They are the only standards we’ve got. If you cannot judge your god, how can you deem her/him worthy of worship at all? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/28 "2005-08-07T13:04:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They are the only standards we’ve got. If you cannot judge your god, how can you deem her/him worthy of worship at all? I agree with you but that’s not how I read the extant message about the matter. I use my standards and have already decided. ---
**Author:** ![MadderMitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@MadderMitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadderMitch)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936/29 "2005-08-07T16:47:21Z")
Maybe it could be an illusion - like a hologram of Tom that appears to Bob to give him guidance, comfort and conversation. To Bob, this is all real enough and he’s happy with the situation; but as for the real Tom; he’s being roasted all the way back to Tim-buck-too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-heaven-and-hell/313936.md?page=1)