# A question about Hitler coming to power. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012 "2008-11-16T18:09:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/41 "2008-11-18T04:10:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’ve got two regions confused together. The Rhineland was essentially all German territory west of the Rhine river. It had been occupied by western troops after WWI but they had all left by 1930 and the area was considered part of Germany and was under German political control. The only restriction was that Germany could not station any military troops in it. Hitler violated this restriction in 1936. > > The Saarland was a much smaller region governed under a League of Nations mandate, which essentially meant British and French control. As you noted, it voted to rejoin Germany in 1935. (It was placed under French control again after WWII and voted to rejoin Germany in 1955 as well.) **Exapno Mapcase** probably did confuse the Rhineland and the Saar, but it appears that the occupation of the Rhineland was in fact supposed to last until 1935 even though all Allied troops had left by 1930, and France did try to separate the Rhineland from Germany and establish it as a puppet state. This failed, possibly at least in part because of the harsh treatment of the inhabitants by the French soldiers. See [Rhineland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/42 "2008-11-18T04:33:00Z")
Calvin Coolidge was an open Klan supporter, and possibly a member; Warren Harding might have been a Klansman, but the evidence is slight. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/43 "2008-11-18T04:54:57Z")
The problem, as with many controversies over European history, is that the names given by history to regions are not the same as the geopolitical divisions on the map. Here’s how J. M. Roberts defines it in _A General History of Europe: Europe 1880 - 1945_, oddly a better treatment than in the books on WWII I checked. > [@](#): > > The Treaty of Versailles forbade German armed forces or fortifications on the left bank of the Rhine or within a fifty-kilometre deep zone on the right bank. The Locarno treaties had included this ‘demilitarization’ in their guarantees. When the Saar was returned to Germany in 1935 after a plebiscite, the German government specifically recognized that it formed part of the Rhineland and demilitarized zone, and in this way again appeared to acquiesce in its existence. Hitler had also said that he would respect freely negotiated treaties (as Locarno had been). Nevertheless, during 1935 misgivings began to be felt, especially in France, that a reoccupation of the Rhineland was intended. The return of the Saar had given Hitler more freedom of action. Violations of the demilitarization conditions were occurring in the Rhineland and it was later alleged that as many as 20,000 German soldiers had been introduced into the zone in a clandestine manner. The irritation and alarm which the German government expressed over the signing of a Franco-Russian treaty in May 1935 increased this apprehension. It was not, therefore, from a completely clear sky that there fell the coup of reoccupation. The Allies were indeed to occupy the Rhineland for 15 years, or until 1935, although that occupation ended early. The Saar lies in the southwestern corner of the demilitarized sector on the west side of the Rhine. A plebicite was always intended to determine their identity. I should not have given the impression that the Rhineland as a whole transferred because of a plebiscite; just the Saar did. However, the Germans had control of the rest of the region since 1930, making calling any move of troops into the area an invasion hard to justify. A violation, certainly, but I did say that. I think I did a fair job of taking the details and compressing them into my very general overview of the situation. I’ll quickly concede that, when it comes to WWII, no amount of detail is ever enough for some and more detail is always available on every issue. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/44 "2008-11-18T05:00:01Z")
Is it starting to sink in that, no, Hitler was not exactly elected? > **[Adolf Hitler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)** > > Adolf Hitler (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}German: \[ˈaːdɔlf ˈhɪtlɐ\] ⓘ; 20 April 1889 – 30 April 1945) was an Austrian-born German politician who was the dictator of Germany from 1933 until his suicide in 1945. He rose to power as the leader of the Nazi Party,\[a\] becoming the chancellor in 1933 and then taking the title of Fü... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/45 "2008-11-18T05:45:53Z")
I agree with Roberts that if the Saarland had not reunified with Germany in 1935, Hitler would probably not have been able to remilitarize the Rhineland in 1936. The Saarland was essentially a hostage territory and France wanted an excuse to keep it. If Hitler had violated the Versailles Treaty by remilitarizing the Rhineland while France still held the Saarland, then France probably would have argued that this was sufficient cause to cancel the agreement to allow the Saarland to vote on reunification. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/46 "2008-11-18T05:51:46Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Is it starting to sink in that, no, Hitler was not exactly elected? > [Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) No, because people apparently need a Moral Lesson, history be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/47 "2008-11-18T06:10:16Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > The Valkyrie assassination plot (the subject of the movie) comes later. It was in repsonse to the defeat at Stalingrad and a growing sense in the officer corps that that the war was lost. Right. But there had been earlier plans by millitary officers, some as early as 37-38, to overthrow Hitler. They just all miscarried early because the generals tended to be bumbling vacillating idiots . ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/48 "2008-11-18T06:28:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Calvin Coolidge was an open Klan supporter, and possibly a member; Warren Harding might have been a Klansman, but the evidence is slight. I’d heard the rumors about Harding (ironic, since he was also rumored to have had a black ancestor, and confessed to a close friend that it was possible),\* but I’ve never heard that said about Coolidge. Cite? **kellner** , I’d also never heard that Hitler’s citizenship was an issue once he’d moved to Germany. Was he still technically an Austrian citizen when he ran against Hindenburg? \*See here: [Was Warren Harding inducted into the KKK while president? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2229/was-warren-harding-inducted-into-the-kkk-while-president) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/49 "2008-11-18T06:48:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d also never heard that Hitler’s citizenship was an issue once he’d moved to Germany. Was he still technically an Austrian citizen when he ran against Hindenburg? Apparently he became a German citizen only a few weeks before the election. He did it in a roundabout fashion by arranging to be appointed to a government office in the German state of Brunswick. Under Brunswick law, this automatically made him a citizen of Brunswick. And under German law, anyone who was a citizen of any German state was automatically a citizen of Germany. So Hitler became a citizen on February 25 and ran for President on March 13. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/50 "2008-11-18T06:54:27Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Is it starting to sink in that, no, Hitler was not exactly elected? > [Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) What you _can_ say, IIANM, is that he came to through constitutional means. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/51 "2008-11-18T07:10:31Z")
> [@sjc](#): > > What you _can_ say, IIANM, is that he came to through constitutional means. Only if the Weimar constitution allowed for street gangs intimidating voters into electing their patron. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/52 "2008-11-18T07:43:15Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > **kellner** , I’d also never heard that Hitler’s citizenship was an issue once he’d moved to Germany. Was he still technically an Austrian citizen when he ran against Hindenburg? Hitler, Austrian citizen by birth, moved to Munich in 1913 after dodging the Austrian draft for several years. There he claimed to be stateless. In 1924 when Hitler was in prison the local authorities wanted to deport him upon release but Austrian authorities indicated that they weren’t willing to take him back. In 1925, shortly after his release from prison, Hitler requested a release from his Austrian citizenship which was granted. From then on he was truly stateless and still living in Germany. In the following years there were several attempts to become a citizen of a German state (at the time a German citizenship existed only as a collective term for the citizenships of the member states, much like the EU citizenship today.) One of the ways of becoming a citizen besides the regular naturalization process was securing a position as a civil servant. There were various attempts by political supporters to find a suitable position him. In 1930 one such attempts came pretty close success. A supporter presented Hitler with an unsolicited appointment to the command of a small gendarmerie post which Hitler reportedly accepted at first. Later both sides tried to downplay the affair because it was pretty dubious and embarrassing even by his standards. In February 1932, just in time for the Presidential election in March, Hitler was employed by the goverment of the Free State Braunschweig and became a citizen of Braunschweig and consequently Germany. On preview, I’m a bit late. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/53 "2008-11-18T13:04:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > I see. So people just thought that they preferred Obama to McCain? Ah, I see what you’re doing. I won’t fall for it, other than saying that you should be ashamed for trying to bring it up in GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/54 "2008-11-18T13:50:27Z")
It’s worth noting that the Wermacht’s (German Army)'s various plost against Hitler came to nothing early on _mostly because_ the Wermacht had not yet made up its mind that Hitler was entirely bad for Germany. In reality, they sat back and were largely content to ride him as far as he would carry them; all the while feeling Prussian superiority over him. Hitler returned the contempt and was content to use them as long as he could, in turn. After the war turned against Germany, the Wermacht began to plot more seriously to remove Hitler. However, they still very much wanted to reaplce him and make peace while they were ahead; the goal was to keep as much as possible of what had been won so far. Even Stauffenberg, the guy who placed the exploding briefcase in the July 20 plot, felt this way. These men were not anti-Hitler heroes nor martyrs to Democracy…they thought of themselves as pragmatists. They were trying to cut their losses and keep their conquests after Hitler had taken them as far as he could. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/55 "2008-11-18T14:09:13Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’d heard the rumors about Harding (ironic, since he was also rumored to have had a black ancestor, and confessed to a close friend that it was possible),\* but I’ve never heard that said about Coolidge. Cite? I don’t have an online citation, but it’s in _The Fiery Cross: The Ku Klux Klan in America_, by Craig Wade. The only online citations I can find refer to Cal refusing to denounce the Klan, but not to his membership. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/56 "2008-11-18T14:13:07Z")
The Venlo incident concerns attempted contact by the intelligence services of Great Britain, and Holland, with the German Army COS (Gen. Ludwig Beck). As i understand it, the german Army chiefs wanted to make a deal with the British-but the Gestapo had infiltrated the deal and compromised it-the British Intelligence agents (Capt. Stevens, and (Dutch) Capt. de Koop) were lured to a cafe in the border town of venlo-where they were kidnapped by the Gestapo. DeKoop was killed. had this succeeded, it is very likely that the German Army generals would have overthrown Hitler in 1939. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/57 "2008-11-18T14:28:15Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Ah, I see what you’re doing. I won’t fall for it, other than saying that you should be ashamed for trying to bring it up in GQ. My apologies. The way I read your post, it seemed that you introduced it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/58 "2008-11-18T15:20:43Z")
One of the ironies of history is that Hitler had much better political sense than his generals and much worse military sense. This served him well all the way through the years leading up to the war, when he seemingly could do no wrong. He sensed, correctly, that his enemies would not fight back when he pushed. So he pushed and pushed and pushed, until the breaking point when his enemies gathered their will and their ability and started to fight back. This he had no counter-strategy for. And from this point onward he seemingly could do nothing right. That’s also a Moral Lesson which people have taken to heart. Unfortunately, it’s an easy lesson to understand but an incredibly difficult one to properly apply. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/59 "2008-11-18T15:26:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Calvin Coolidge was an open Klan supporter, and possibly a member… I think this sharply overstates the case. Klan literature likes to claim responsibility for electing Coolidge in 1924, but that has more to do with their hostility toward the Democratic nominee than with any actual affinity from Coolidge. To be sure, Coolidge never denounced the Klan, but I think one would be hard-pressed to find that he ever supported them. He gave speeches extolling the ideal of racial equality (although he took few if any concrete steps to improve civil rights), and his spokesman specifically (albeit tepidly) distanced Coolidge from the Klan. Here’s one [source](http://books.google.com/books?id=wq1D6hcYlFwC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=calvin+coolidge+klan&source=bl&ots=PcO9KCKDhF&sig=Wewyi5jACeKnQMjXNyOs8loKpi0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA86,M1). ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012/60 "2008-11-18T18:31:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This served him well all the way through the years leading up to the war, when he seemingly could do no wrong. He sensed, correctly, that his enemies would not fight back when he pushed. > > So he pushed and pushed and pushed, until the breaking point when his enemies gathered their will and their ability and started to fight back. This he had no counter-strategy for. And from this point onward he seemingly could do nothing right. Eh, he did okay in France and the Low Countries. I think that Hitler did contribute to military strategy with some success early on. Some of Germany’s military defeats even occurred when he allowed the General Staff to talk him into (or out of) things. But he was never the military genius German propaganda painted him to be. He was occasionally shrewd and dangerous, though. Eventually, of course, his skills degraded and his psychology became fragile and the war’s complexity outgrew his limited capacity to manage it, and everything went rapidly downhill. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-hitler-coming-to-power/473012.md?page=4)