# A question about Holocaust deniers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985 "2012-10-07T14:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/21 "2012-10-08T01:16:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What, even the grassy knoll guys? The moon hoaxers? Anti-vax? Yep. The grassy knoll guys especially. Their laughable theory was “The Jews running the world had to get rid of Kennedy” for a variety of reasons. The moon hoaxers were even more direct: “The moon landing was faked, you can tell it was all done in a film studio, and you know the Jews run Hollywood.” From there, the conversation usually went further downhill. > [@](#): > > For what it’s worth, I’m friends with a CT nut - mostly 9/11 stuff, and more general anti-government kookiness. His (considerably more level-headed) wife is Jewish, as, by extension, is their daughter. Never caught a whiff of any sort of bigotry off him. My guess is that’s just another manifestation of the belief in contradictory things required for CTers. I recently read a good article on this phenomenon. I’ll try to dig it up and post a link to the article. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/22 "2012-10-08T02:16:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > My guess is that’s just another manifestation of the belief in contradictory things required for CTers. I recently read a good article on this phenomenon. I’ll try to dig it up and post a link to the article. I’m impressed how you have a better idea than I do how a friend I’ve known for more than ten years (and you’ve never met) really thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/23 "2012-10-08T02:38:44Z")
Did I say know? No, I did not. I said [guess](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guess?s=t). Maybe I can make it clearer here: Your friend, as you say, is a CT nut. In my experience, as I said, every CT I’ve encountered is, at its root, anti-Semitic. I did not say that your friend is an anti-Semite. I said that my guess is that your friend (a) believes in certain CTs and (b) your friend does not believe said CTs to be anti-Semitic. Does that clear it up? And, as promised, [here](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-people-believe-conspiracy-theoies) is the _Scientific American_ article (Special Issue, September 2012, p. 91). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/24 "2012-10-08T02:49:31Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I suggest you familiarize yourself with the term [guess](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guess?s=t). Maybe I’ll make it clearer here: Your friend, as you say, is a CT nut. In my experience, as I said, every CT I’ve encountered is, at its root, anti-Semitic. So, you’re saying that if Bob says, “Kennedy wasn’t killed by Oswald, he was killed by the Jews!” and Andy says, “Kennedy wasn’t killed by Oswald, he was killed by the Mafia!” both of them believe in an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, because one theory (out of, literally, hundreds) about what “really” happened to Kennedy involves the Jews? Even though nothing about what Andy says is in anyway related to Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/25 "2012-10-08T03:22:23Z")
Actually, I’ve never heard it in person that the Mafia killed Kennedy; at least, I don’t recall hearing that. For those persons I’ve encountered who’ve advanced a fair number of the other CTs, when I’ve queried them, as I mentioned above, it’s always gotten back to one of the anti-Semitic CTs. I find it sad and, obviously, it tarnishes my view of any CT. But what I’m saying is that I’d like to meet your friend. Really, it would be great to break the string of bad eggs I’ve encountered who are CTers. I really would like to meet one in person who is not an anti-Semite. Unfortunately, all of my in-person accounts have been with the opposite kind of person. I’d look forward to a meeting with a good egg CTer. I guess I should emphasize that I’m not being sarcastic; I really would like to meet the dude. By the way, did you read the _Scientific American_ article and, if so, what do you think of it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/26 "2012-10-08T03:33:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, you’re saying that if Bob says, “Kennedy wasn’t killed by Oswald, he was killed by the Jews!” and Andy says, “Kennedy wasn’t killed by Oswald, he was killed by the Mafia!” both of them believe in an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, because one theory (out of, literally, hundreds) about what “really” happened to Kennedy involves the Jews? Even though nothing about what Andy says is in anyway related to Jews? While I have no doubt that CTers are disproportionately anti-Semitic, I don’t remember in the movie JFK, Jim Garrison ranting about “the Jews”. For that matter, I don’t remember any of the characters in the movie, except Ruby, being Jewish and I don’t think Ruby’s ethnicity was even mentioned in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/27 "2012-10-08T03:42:47Z")
Uh, after reading the book “Case Closed” by Posner and other debunkings it is clear that any narrative coming from Jim Garrison and movies derived from his exploits are better to be described as just fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/28 "2012-10-08T04:00:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, after reading the book “Case Closed” by Posner and other debunkings it is clear that any narrative coming from Jim Garrison and movies derived from his exploits are better to be described as just fiction. I was joking. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/29 "2012-10-08T04:34:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Actually, I’ve never heard it in person that the Mafia killed Kennedy; at least, I don’t recall hearing that. For those persons I’ve encountered who’ve advanced a fair number of the other CTs, when I’ve queried them, as I mentioned above, it’s always gotten back to one of the anti-Semitic CTs. I find it sad and, obviously, it tarnishes my view of any CT. Yeah, most of the Kennedy CTers I know favor the CIA as their bogeyman here. None of them have ever invoked the Jews as the source of the conspiracy. A lot of my friends are on the liberal political fringe, and have some pretty goofy ideas. None of them are racists, though. Well, one of them moved out to the middle of nowhere, Arizona, married into a redneck family, and has started blaming Mexicans for a lot of things. I don’t see him too much anymore. > [@](#): > > But what I’m saying is that I’d like to meet your friend. Really, it would be great to break the string of bad eggs I’ve encountered who are CTers. I really would like to meet one in person who is not an anti-Semite. Unfortunately, all of my in-person accounts have been with the opposite kind of person. I’d look forward to a meeting with a good egg CTer. I guess I should emphasize that I’m not being sarcastic; I really would like to meet the dude. I’m not really in a position to introduce you, but I suppose could, if you’re interested, forward you the extensive email conversations I’ve had with this guy about 9/11. They cover about six months or so, and what I figure has to be at least a couple hundred exchanges. He never mentions anything about Jews, and I followed him down a _lot_ of rabbit holes in the course of that conversation. > [@](#): > > By the way, did you read the _Scientific American_ article and, if so, what do you think of it? I skimmed it, but I’m not really arguing against the concept of cognitive dissonance (which my friend has in spades). I’m just saying, there’s a lot of different kinds of crazy in the CT world. Not all of it is crazy racism. A lot of it is crazy anti-authoritarianism, with no racist tinge at all. ---
**Author:** ![Wulabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Wulabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wulabo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/30 "2012-10-08T04:39:00Z")
To address your point about why it matters how many or in what fashion they were executed. I believe it does matter. In fact the method is the most horrific aspect of the Holocaust. Human history is littered with mass exterminations but what sets the Holocaust apart is the calculated integration of human savagery with 20th Century technology. It raised (or lowered I suppose) the bar. Here is a technologically advanced society using the advancements that are supposed to raise us up above our animal instincts to systematically slaughter other humans in a cold, calculated method. Icy, systematic, calculated murder on a mass scale. Sends shivers down the spine. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/31 "2012-10-08T04:58:02Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > Now I definitely see how they’re doing #3, but it’s 1 and 2 here that get me - is this willful blindness then? They really believe that 6 million people being murdered gets a well-deserved shocked and sombered reaction, but if it’s only _two_ million - well, that’s Jews _taking advantage_? (Two million is the number I’ve heard given). You’re missing the Holocaust Deniers’ narrative. It goes something like this. “World War II happened, and we can all agree it was just terrible, and all sorts of bad stuff happened. Now the thing to understand is, the Jews were enemies of the Nazis from the beginning. They weren’t really loyal to Germany. So when the war started, the Germans took them into custody because they couldn’t trust them. That’s not unusual. Americans did that in World War II too with the Japanese; the British in the Boer War, and so on. It was a strictly defensive measure.” "Now, some Jews died in the camps of disease or malnutrition. That’s because there was a war on. Allied bombing had so disrupted German supply and done such horrible stuff to German civilians that there were shortages of food and medicine. (So really, if anybody’s responsible for the Jews who died, it was the Allies, with their barbaric bombing of innocent German civilians). And those deaths were, at most, a few hundred thousand. As for the rest of it, the gas chambers, and mass graves, and all that, that stuff didn’t happen. It’s a deliberate fraud that was put out by both the Soviets and the Jews, the Soviets because they wanted to discredit fascism and racial pride, and the Jews because they wanted, first, to discredit and embarrass the German people, and second, to play on international sympathy to get a Jewish state of their own. " And that’s basically the argument. That it didn’t happen, and to the extent that it did, it was accidental, and you know, shit happens. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/32 "2012-10-08T05:20:12Z")
That [crazy old guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wenneker_von_Brunn) who shot up the Holocaust Museum a few years ago maintained a blog where he denied the Holocaust, though with a twist. In his own words, he said: _“I don’t believe the Holocaust ever happened…but it SHOULD have happened!”_ That kind of logic make head asplode. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/33 "2012-10-08T05:35:48Z")
I know a nice chap, American, of German family origin, who denies the holocaust, because of a naive belief that Germans wouldn’t have done such a thing. The Germans are nice, friendly, happy, musical people. He’s vacationed there often; he speaks German fluently. He loves the German people, and simply cannot believe that they could get involved in something that evil. History has to be mistaken. I suppose it’s a slightly nicer reason than we usually see, but it is remarkably simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/34 "2012-10-08T12:56:18Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > In my experience, as I said, every CT I’ve encountered is, at its root, anti-Semitic. I would rephrase this as every CT has a certain number of anti-Semitic adherents, and the more CTs a person espouses, the more likely it is that he/she is an anti-Semitic bigot. When you get someone who believes conspiracy theories about 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, water fluoridation, the use of vaccines to depopulate the world etc., it is highly probable that person has connected the dots in his excuse for a brain to blame da Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/35 "2012-10-08T14:19:41Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > (…)from what I understand Holocaust deniers don’t tend to deny the whole thing: they say that the numbers were much less (…) why does anyone feel that the “fact” the numbers of people killed in the Holocaust are lower than the historical record tells us important enough to devote so much time and effort to? For most “deniers” it’s antisemitism and refuting the Jewish controlled media et cetera. But beyond that I value truth and historical accuracy for their own sake, so if the Nazis only exterminated a mere 3 million, I hope that info would eventually supplant the current figures. Likewise, if the number was really 12 million. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/36 "2012-10-08T15:01:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Did I say know? No, I did not. I said [guess](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guess?s=t). Maybe I can make it clearer here: Your friend, as you say, is a CT nut. In my experience, as I said, every CT I’ve encountered is, at its root, anti-Semitic. > > I did not say that your friend is an anti-Semite. I said that my guess is that your friend (a) believes in certain CTs and (b) your friend does not believe said CTs to be anti-Semitic. > > Does that clear it up? Not until we find out whether or not he takes sugar in his porridge. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/37 "2012-10-08T15:07:38Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > That [crazy old guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wenneker_von_Brunn) who shot up the Holocaust Museum a few years ago maintained a blog where he denied the Holocaust, though with a twist. In his own words, he said: _“I don’t believe the Holocaust ever happened…but it SHOULD have happened!”_ > > That kind of logic make head asplode. :smack: Holocost deniers remind me of ["Cell Block Tango ‘(He had it comin’)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g2zI5mm-OM) from the musical ‘Chicago’. In it all the inmates complain that they didn’t murder their husbands, boyfriends, etc. but they deserved to be killed in any case. Only with out the humor, irony, basic tenets of humanity… ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/38 "2012-10-08T15:32:01Z")
Umm, this is not some kind of isolated or even very interesting phenomenon… this kind of “denialist” talk is standard practice in all conflicts, probably going back to ancient history. The Japanese refuse to believe half of the stuff they did to the Chinese/Koreans and in the Balkans it’s common as dirt to hear that atrocities were faked to get outside sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/39 "2012-10-08T19:05:31Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > For most “deniers” it’s antisemitism and refuting the Jewish controlled media et cetera. But beyond that I value truth and historical accuracy for their own sake, so if the Nazis only exterminated a mere 3 million, I hope that info would eventually supplant the current figures. Likewise, if the number was really 12 million. The number **was** really 12 million - or possibly even 17 million depending on how you define it. 6 million jews, 6 million non jews (slavs, pows, communists, freemasons, gays, jehovahs witnesses, gypsies, cripples… ) It wouldn’t surprise me actually if for every anti semite conspiracy theorist who thinks there was no holocaust, there’s at least five who think the conspiracy was to after the war “big up” the jewish aspect of it while ignoring the rest. I am rather skeptical that many of the “labelled” anti-semitic conspiaracy theorists are actually anti-semitic though, at least in a bigotted way. You can believe in a shadowy group of jewish people controlling things without believing most jews are in on it (likewise freemasons etc). Oh and David Icke… I am morally certain when he says lizards, he means lizards. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985/40 "2012-10-08T20:19:07Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Oh and David Icke… I am morally certain when he says lizards, he means lizards. Icke believes in the truth of the Protocols and blames the Holocaust on “Rothschild Zionists”, and an Illuminati cabal that took over Judaism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-holocaust-deniers/636985.md?page=3)