# A question about how college works **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 17, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278 "2019-03-17T22:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/41 "2019-03-18T16:52:36Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Beckdawrek, if it’s true that you “believed, til a few days ago that you got into a prestigious University by your works”, then you don’t know the ways that rich and reasonably well-off students get into top colleges easier than those from less well-off families. Parents have gotten students into top colleges by donating lots of money to the colleges. Reasonably well-off parents help get students into top colleges by paying for SAT and ACT preparation courses and college-essay writing coaches. Middle-class parents buy SAT and ACT preparation books and books about choosing a top college for their child and have enough money to allow the student to apply to a number of top colleges and are willing to encourage their child to apply to them. Parents from economic levels below that haven’t gone to college themselves and generally can’t tell their child anything about applying to top colleges. They barely understand how to apply to community colleges. They do’t know anything about the SAT and ACT tests. The poorer the parents are, the less chance the student has of getting into a top college, no matter how smart they are, just because they don’t know about these legal ways of improving their chances, some of which cost considerable money. The news stories recently have been just about the illegal ways that parents improve their child’s chances. For the most part this is not true. SAT and ACT prep classes don’t increase scores very much at all. Most schools waive application fees for poor students. The biggest advantage non-poor kids have in getting into a better schools is the knowledge of which schools are goods and the encouragement to apply to the best schools. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/42 "2019-03-18T17:11:42Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > In my field that is totally true. Teachers get paid based on years of service and credit hours post-BA. In my district, the columns look like: BA (rare, only for special cases), BA +15, BA+30, BA+45(or Masters), BA+60(or Masters+15), Masters+30. > > Anecdote: A few decades back, one of my fellow teachers was playfully ragging on me for graduating from a CalState school. He felt superior because his degree was from Georgetown. I noted that we were both teaching at the same school for the same pay, and I just didn’t see the edge. Shut that issue down toot sweet\*. > > Or as a Georgetown grad would say - _tuit de suite_. 😃 Or as a French speaker would say, toute de suite. BA+60 years of service? Is the retirement plan that bad? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/43 "2019-03-18T18:26:26Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Voyager, please note that I wrote only the first three lines of what you are quoting. msmith537 wrote the rest of it. msmith537 quoted a little bit of one of my posts. Be careful when you quote a post that contains a long quote from someone else. I do not wish to be associated with anything I did not write, even if it’s a reasonable good post. My apologies. I noted that the quote tags were screwed up, but didn’t pay it enough attention. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/44 "2019-03-18T18:32:48Z")
BTW, there was a letter in the Times today from someone who claimed that athletic departments got a quota of admissions, and there was a similar quota for legacy admissions and donors admissions, so the regular student was not affected by the scandal (except perhaps in decreasing the reputation of the school.) Real athletes in minor sports were. I’m not sure how true this is, but it seems plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/45 "2019-03-18T18:43:13Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > I didn’t go myself, so I’m unclear on the finer points— > > At first I didn’t understand why the parents of these affluent mediocre students were so desperate to get their kids admitted to topflight universities; where surely the curricula were punishingly tough. After all, if the kid can’t pass the SATs or whatever, how the hell do they expect them to ever be able to handle **the actual schoolwork**? I’ve heard that getting into schools like the Ivy Leagues is the tough part and that the curriculum is \*\*\*not \*\*\*necessarily “punishingly tough” at all, especially if you major in something like liberal arts. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/46 "2019-03-18T18:45:06Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Or as a French speaker would say, toute de suite. > > BA+60 years of service? Is the retirement plan that bad? Credit hours, not years of service. Hopefully upper-division college coursework designed to update/enhance your teaching assignment. Although it _can_ be gamed… 😃 We get step increases every couple of years until Year 29, when it caps. F29 is as high as you can go. I’m currently at E29+3, which is just fine. I never wanted to get the Masters anyway. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/47 "2019-03-18T20:05:13Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Somebody who becomes a CFO of any company at 28 is pretty special - either very good at their job or also very good at office politics. I imagine both. I looked at his background in a Forbes article (his name is David Knopf ). His prior jobs included: Goldman Sachs - investment banking - analyst Onex - private equity - ?? 3G Capital - private equity - Partner, involved in $45 billion Kraft Heinz merger To me it looks like he started down a typical investment banking career path. His “big break” appears to have been his involvement in the Kraft Heinz merger. I don’t know if he was a partner before or after the merger, but presumably his skills impressed his client so much that they made him their CFO. Certainly a smart guy, but also a bit of luck being in the right place at the right time. Interesting article about where the Fortune 500 CEOs went to college: [https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2018-06-11/top-fortune-500-ceos-where-they-went-to-college](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2018-06-11/top-fortune-500-ceos-where-they-went-to-college) Only 14 graduated from Ivy League undergrad schools. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/48 "2019-03-18T20:19:39Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Interesting article about where the Fortune 500 CEOs went to college: > [https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2018-06-11/top-fortune-500-ceos-where-they-went-to-college](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2018-06-11/top-fortune-500-ceos-where-they-went-to-college) > > Only 14 graduated from Ivy League undergrad schools. “Only” 14/500 in Ivy League (2.8%) is high proportion compared to the proportion of Ivy Leaguers in the total population of college-educated people (based on current enrollment, about 0.5%) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/49 "2019-03-18T21:18:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Only 14 graduated from Ivy League undergrad schools. Entrepreneurs make up a large portion of the modern Fortune 500 and generally are not terribly representative of the elite, although their kids might be. And where they got their graduate degree, if any, might tell you more. I couldn’t find an equivalent listing for the Fortune 500 but this article, [Here Is What It Takes to Become a CEO, According to 12,000 LinkedIn Profiles](https://business.linkedin.com/talent-solutions/blog/trends-and-research/2018/what-12000-ceos-have-in-common), has a broader picture. The top ten universities attended include both undergraduate and graduate schools, most of which would definitely be called elite. 1. Stanford 2. Penn State 3. Harvard Business School 4. Berkeley 5. MIT 6. Stanford Business School 7. Harvard 8. INSEAD (France) 9. The Wharton School (Penn) 10. Northwestern Business School ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/50 "2019-03-18T23:13:23Z")
Fun fact, I have a degree, I list it on my resume, and I have had jobs where people asked about it. Only twice in a long working life have I gone for jobs that required me to\* prove\* I had a degree, and they were both real shit jobs (well I’m not sure about the one I didn’t get, but I have an inkling). One of them asked for a transcript and one of them, the shit one I got, wanted to see my diploma or a copy of it. I also worked on my college newspaper and literary magazine, and I mentioned it, for the first couple of jobs I went after. Not since then. Had it been the Harvard Crimson or the Harvard Lampoon, I could have mentioned it forever and it would have meant something. I have a friend who went to Antioch, which at the time was considered elite, in that it was pretty selective about who went there, and it had a great reputation. Now it’s gone. I have no idea how that works for my friend but it’s good that he had a couple of decades of experience before the college he went to folded up and disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/51 "2019-03-18T23:32:33Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I have a friend who went to Antioch, which at the time was considered elite, in that it was pretty selective about who went there, and it had a great reputation. Now it’s gone. I have no idea how that works for my friend but it’s good that he had a couple of decades of experience before the college he went to folded up and disappeared. It’s back. [https://www.antiochcollege.edu](https://www.antiochcollege.edu) (technically it’s a “new” institution, but they’re trying to keep the brand alive. Mostly successfully, I think.) But I know what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/52 "2019-03-19T00:43:28Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Entrepreneurs make up a large portion of the modern Fortune 500 and generally are not terribly representative of the elite, although their kids might be. And where they got their graduate degree, if any, might tell you more. That touches on an interesting point. A lot of companies are started or run by executives who don’t come from elite schools. And yet, once the companies reach a certain level, all they seem to want to recruit from are the top schools. There’s a certain risk-averse logic to it. No one gets fired for hiring that guy from Wharton who didn’t work out. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I couldn’t find an equivalent listing for the Fortune 500 but this article, [Here Is What It Takes to Become a CEO, According to 12,000 LinkedIn Profiles](https://business.linkedin.com/talent-solutions/blog/trends-and-research/2018/what-12000-ceos-have-in-common), has a broader picture. According to the article, the main career highlights for a CEO are: Computer science was the most popular field of study for CEOs Stanford University was the most attended school among CEOs Consultant was the most common first job (on record) for CEOs Most CEOs were directors (for a while) before being promoted to the top job There’s no single path to becoming a CEO Not surprising that CEOs skew towards Stanford and Computer Science as I imagine a disproportionate number of startups are tech. Other than that, the article isn’t particularly insightful. Starting a career as a consultant (i.e. Accenture, BCG, Capgemini, Deloitte, EY, FTI Consulting, Gartner, Huron, IBM, etc, etc) and becoming a “director” at some point in your career is such a common path as to be meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/53 "2019-03-19T01:53:47Z")
puddleglum writes: \> Most schools waive application fees for poor students. For _poor_ students. That’s something like a family of four which makes less than $45,000 per year. That’s about 35% of all families. The problem is the applicants who come from a family of four who makes between $45,000 and $75,000 per year. That’s about 20% of all families. They don’t quite make little enough to get waivers. The problem is that applying to a bunch of top colleges and taking the SAT and ACT tests could easily cost $600. Their parents are likely to say, “Hey, we didn’t even get to go to college. Why don’t you just apply to one state university and take just the SAT (or ACT, as appropriate) to get in there? Why do you want to cost us $600? Why do you think you deserve to go to some top college if we didn’t go to college at all?” Waiving the fees for truly poor students doesn’t work much better. The parents in those families often are a little suspicious about the idea of their kids going to college at all. Even if a college gives them enough financial aid to pay for all the tuition and room and board, there are other expenses. They think that if their kid really has to go to college, why don’t they go part-time to a community college and work at a job at the same time? \> SAT and ACT prep classes don’t increase scores very much at all. The best SAT preparation courses raise the scores going from the PSAT to the SAT by about 115 points. > **[How to Improve Your SAT Score](https://blog.collegeboard.org/how-to-improve-your-sat-score)** > > Whether you're looking for a higher SAT score to increase your college opportunities or qualify for more scholarships, we're here to help. Follow these steps and improve your SAT score. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/54 "2019-03-19T03:05:33Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > But what does that say about _the actual quality of the education?_ . Good question, a Harvard MBA is pretty hard to get also the STEM areas are the same. But there are a hell of a lot of degrees that don’t really offer much but hey with a trust fund you may not really need it… ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/55 "2019-03-19T03:56:47Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > puddleglum writes: > > \> Most schools waive application fees for poor students. > > For _poor_ students. That’s something like a family of four which makes less than $45,000 per year. That’s about 35% of all families. The problem is the applicants who come from a family of four who makes between $45,000 and $75,000 per year. That’s about 20% of all families. They don’t quite make little enough to get waivers. The problem is that applying to a bunch of top colleges and taking the SAT and ACT tests could easily cost $600. Their parents are likely to say, “Hey, we didn’t even get to go to college. Why don’t you just apply to one state university and take just the SAT (or ACT, as appropriate) to get in there? Why do you want to cost us $600? Why do you think you deserve to go to some top college if we didn’t go to college at all?” Waiving the fees for truly poor students doesn’t work much better. The parents in those families often are a little suspicious about the idea of their kids going to college at all. Even if a college gives them enough financial aid to pay for all the tuition and room and board, there are other expenses. They think that if their kid really has to go to college, why don’t they go part-time to a community college and work at a job at the same time? > > \> SAT and ACT prep classes don’t increase scores very much at all. > > The best SAT preparation courses raise the scores going from the PSAT to the SAT by about 115 points. > > [How to Improve Your SAT Score - College Board Blog](https://blog.collegeboard.org/6-steps-to-improve-your-sat-score) One of my relatives is a specialty surgeon, my nephew tells me this guy made a $500,000 signing bonus when he went to his new job. His daughter went to a very prestigious women’s college on a scholarship as an independent student, as she was not living or communicating with him or her mother. YMMV Some practice with the sort of test questions they tend to ask on these exams like SAT goes a long way to showing students the pattern of what they can expect to see. That beats facing it cold. If there’s a good match with the sort of questions that really appear on the test - sort of demonstrating the psychology of the test writers - that helps too. Of course, nothing beats having deep interest and background in reading (more than a screenful at time, that is) and an expansive vocabulary that comes with voracious reading. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/56 "2019-03-19T14:38:02Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > puddleglum writes: > > […] > > \> SAT and ACT prep classes don’t increase scores very much at all. > > The best SAT preparation courses raise the scores going from the PSAT to the SAT by about 115 points. > > [How to Improve Your SAT Score - College Board Blog](https://blog.collegeboard.org/6-steps-to-improve-your-sat-score) It is important to distinguish in a claim like yours between expensive personal coaching or classes vs. what your link actually recommends > [@College Board](#): > > You don’t need to pay for a private tutor or an SAT prep class to improve your SAT scores. which is the free online Khan Academy. Expensive prep courses don’t outperform good ol’ practice, practice, practice. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/57 "2019-03-19T18:33:46Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > It is important to distinguish in a claim like yours between expensive personal coaching or classes vs. what your link actually recommendswhich is the free online Khan Academy. > > Expensive prep courses don’t outperform good ol’ practice, practice, practice. The older studies about prep not working apply to a completely different version of the test. The current SAT is explicitly designed to respond well to coaching/practice/prep. It is a explicitly a test of skills, not aptitude. A prep coach or class is all about making you practice, practice, practice in the most effective way. It’s not about getting magical advice, it’s about taking practice tests and having someone go over them with you. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/58 "2019-03-19T20:22:27Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Why do you think you deserve to go to some top college if we didn’t go to college at all?" > [@](#): > > They think that if their kid really has to go to college, why don’t they go part-time to a community college and work at a job at the same time? There are parents who think like this? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/59 "2019-03-19T21:33:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > There are parents who think like this? Hell yes. Quite a few in my neighborhood which is hardly poor. I know a family where both parents had good jobs - who thought a new car was a much better investment than college for their kids. One of the college counselors at the high school was convinced that the CSU up the freeway was as good as Harvard. There are lots of parents out there who seem to want to torpedo their kids chances. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/60 "2019-03-20T00:47:07Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > I didn’t go myself, so I’m unclear on the finer points— > > At first I didn’t understand why the parents of these affluent mediocre students were so desperate to get their kids admitted to topflight universities; where surely the curricula were punishingly tough. I thought I’d revisit this part of the original post. There are plenty of reports that an Ivy League education is (for some people) easier than HS was. Some elite schools have punishingly tough curricula. Other elite schools require a punishingly tough HS curricula, then try to give you the most expensive education money can buy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278.md?page=4)