# A question about how college works **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 17, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278 "2019-03-17T22:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/61 "2019-03-20T01:43:04Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I thought I’d revisit this part of the original post. > > There are plenty of reports that an Ivy League education is (for some people) easier than HS was. > > Some elite schools have punishingly tough curricula. > > Other elite schools require a punishingly tough HS curricula, then try to give you the most expensive education money can buy. You know, it’s not an either/or. Harvard has a reputation for being relatively easy–and it is. But the one thing everyone I know at Harvard has in common is that they are BUSY. Harvard selects, aggressively, for kids that don’t need to be kicked in the butt to get them to do something. Whenever I talk to a kid from Harvard, I get tired. They are doing SO MUCH. They are taking classes, auditing classes, reading things, going to lectures, making movies, organizing charities, recording albums, staring companies, writing programs, learning random languages . . . It’s a really different world. I’m sure there are exceptions, but everything in the school culture pushes kids toward agency, toward exploring, experimenting, creating. Sure, they aren’t going to get Bad Grades if they don’t do those things, but they are going to be bored and lonely. And this shows in the job market: grades don’t matter for that first job, but resume and interview do, and a Harvard kid has tons of projects and experiences to talk about. What you get for your $$ (though my kids generally go for free, cuz poor) is access to that culture of achievement. It’s incredibly short-sighted to think that how tough it is to get letters on a report card is the best way to measure an academic culture. FWIW: I send 3-5 kids a year to Harvard or MIT, and so I have on many occasions sat and listened to the two groups talk to each other when they visit. Both generally like it and are clearly learning a lot. MIT kids spend a lot of time talking about P-sets and what course they are taking. It’s very class-oriented. Harvard kids spend a lot more time talking about things they are working on outside of class. Both sets of kids are academically . . .humming? . . . and clearly getting a great education. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2019, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/62 "2019-03-20T06:29:20Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You know, it’s not an either/or. Harvard has a reputation for being relatively easy–and it is. When my daughter went to Chicago, where C grades are still a thing, some guy came from Harvard to talk about the dangers of grade inflation. He got booed. > [@](#): > > FWIW: I send 3-5 kids a year to Harvard or MIT, and so I have on many occasions sat and listened to the two groups talk to each other when they visit. Both generally like it and are clearly learning a lot. MIT kids spend a lot of time talking about P-sets and what course they are taking. It’s very class-oriented. Harvard kids spend a lot more time talking about things they are working on outside of class. Both sets of kids are academically . . .humming? . . . and clearly getting a great education. One thing about MIT which was just beginning when I was there is that every undergraduate does research. If you work really hard in other schools you might get connected to a research group, but it is rare. That’s incredibly important for students. One of the reasons I donate. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/63 "2019-03-23T20:30:25Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > The guy interviewing him sees that he’s missed a few boxes on the application and asks, “Uhh…where did you go to school?” > > “Wellll…it was called…George Washington.” > > And suddenly the guy is impressed. > > … > Someone interrupts but that’s okay because the interview is basically over; Josh is hired based on the implied successful completion of degree requirements at a prestigious university. Nothing is asked about his grades or expertise – there’s only a brief (almost incredulous) mention that it was “all in computers?” That’s not really how it works. First of all, there is never any resume screening process in the movies. They always go through a montage of “you’re completely unfit for this job” interviews, when in reality they wouldn’t have been invited to interview in the first place IRL. Secondly, just going to Harvard or Princeton or any top school is not enough to land you the job. It may be enough to get you the interview, but chances are you will probably be competing against candidates from similar schools. > [@Grestarian](#): > > I was mid-way through college when that movie came out and even back then I was being told, “Don’t worry, now-a-days a four-year degree really takes longer; even the jocks who get first dibs on classes take at least five.” > > Well, true or not, the guy interviewing Josh is impressed that he (implies that he) finished in four years. > > Of course, getting IN is one thing, getting OUT is another thing, and getting THROUGH is still another. Lots of people who get in don’t finish. Having graduated college in 1995 (and 1/2), I think to a certain extent you are correct. Prior to the 2000s, simply going to college was generally enough to eventually land you a decent corporate job. Plenty of my classmates ended up on the “super senior” program. These days, things are a lot more competitive. There is a lot more pressure for students to become “success robots” with the right GPAs from the right schools with the right internships so they can get jobs at the right companies. To a certain extent, I blame the internet and tech companies in general. They have created this aura of “superstar” companies like Google or Facebook or Goldman Sachs where every ambitious student wants to work when they graduate. When I was graduating college, yeah, it was great if you landed a job with a big, well known company like General Electric, Johnson & Johnson or AT&T. But it wasn’t people’s dream since high school. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/64 "2019-03-24T17:55:46Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > This is a great point (among other great points in that post). Here are a few schools that are highly selective and roughly as prestigious (to those in the know) as Ivy League schools: > > - Pomona > - Haverford > - Smith (and all of the Seven Sisters) > - Deep Springs > - Macalester > - William and Mary (actually a state school) > - Oberlin > - The Colorado College > - The New School > - Sarah Lawrence > - Berkeley > > While plenty of hiring managers who graduated from state schools might not know enough about Sarah Lawrence to be impressed, many hiring managers who attended Columbia would understand a Sarah Lawrence graduate to be very well educated. It’s all about connections, but there’s more than one way to make them. > [@Voyager](#): > > That is a very odd list. Berkeley is hardly an obscure university. The Silicon Valley parents near me drive their kids to it, as much as Stanford. My wife went to William and Mary and while it is an excellent school, it is not anywhere near Harvard except being older if you look at it the right way. What is it about that list that strikes you as so profoundly odd? I composed the list quickly, but the idea (as stated in my post) was to list a few universities that were roughly similar in prestige to those in the Ivy League without actually _being_ in the Ivy League. Yes, Berkeley is well-known, but that’s why I included it along with some much more obscure schools. As another poster acknowledged, some posts implied that “Ivy League” meant “the most prestigious American universities.” It doesn’t, of course, but I included Berkeley because it’s among the most prestigious American universities but not in the Ivy League. The idea was to include a variety of schools, including some the OP might be familiar with, and assert that these are all broadly considered top-tier US schools by those who know what they’re looking at. For someone who isn’t all that familiar with the US higher education market, a school called “The University of Chicago” might sound like a solid-but-generic big city university. Because of my own education and socioeconomic status, I happen to know that it’s a both very rigorous school and where fun goes to die. Many aspects of higher ed are counterintuitive. NYU is probably better known than U of C, but if you’re applying for jobs after graduating with an undergrad economics degree, you want it to be from U of C. The converse is likely true if you applying for jobs with a film degree. IMHO, most employers hiring for most jobs don’t really consider specific school rankings but rather bin them into broad categories like these, in roughly ascending order of prestige: - AA degree from a community college - Undergrad degree from a satellite state school like the University of Wisconsin - Whitewater - Undergrad degree from a good flagship state school like The Ohio University (its pedantic name notwithstanding) - Undergrad degree from a highly selective or otherwise elite private school like Pomona or Haverford / undergrad degree from an outstanding flagship state school like Berkeley - Undergrad degree from an ivy league university I was also trying to point out that schools that aren’t well known can be shockingly prestigious. Deep Springs is basically 20-25 students in the desert running a working ranch. Students attend only for two years, after which the can (if they like) receive an AA degree, just like one gets from any competent-but-low-prestige community college. But if you went to Deep Springs, you can basically write your own ticket to any undergrad program in the country, where you’ll earn your BA/BS. Over 50% of Deep Springs graduates go on to get a Ph.D. Honestly, if “getting into the right college” is the mode one chooses to become successful in life, Deep Springs is possibly the very best choice simply because it carries so much weight with those who decide who transfers into elite undergrad schools and those who handle elite grad school admissions. Most hiring managers would see an AA degree from Deep Springs and think nothing of it or maybe see it as a questionable line item, but they just don’t know what they’re looking at. The OP asked about the subtleties of higher education in the US (a great question, IMHO) and my list/post was intended to convey that much of the received wisdom about prestige and achievement is either misleading or flat-out wrong. Even when it’s broadly correct, the answer to the question “which schools are the most prestigious” is highly context-dependent, and that’s not especially obvious to someone who hasn’t attended college. Again: why did that list seem odd to you? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/65 "2019-03-24T18:02:54Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > I was also trying to point out that schools that aren’t well known can be shockingly prestigious. Deep Springs is basically 20-25 students in the desert running a working ranch. Students attend only for two years, after which the can (if they like) receive an AA degree, just like one gets from any competent-but-low-prestige community college. But if you went to Deep Springs, you can basically write your own ticket to any undergrad program in the country, where you’ll earn your BA/BS. Over 50% of Deep Springs graduates go on to get a Ph.D. I was actually invited to apply to Deep Springs, after getting a crazy-good score on my PSAT. I submitted an initial application, and was then invited to complete a full application. The full application required something like seven detailed essays on my educational experiences and life goals, in an era (early 1980s) in which a lot of schools didn’t require any sort of essay at all. At that point, I decided that I wasn’t really that interested in Deep Springs anyway (and I likely wasn’t going to be considered to be interesting enough to be accepted), and I never sent in the full application. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/66 "2019-03-24T18:11:40Z")
I remember that from when you posted it in another thread. 🙂 I suspect that Deep Springs is so prestigious not only because it’s highly selective but also because, on top of that, its student body is highly self-selecting. People who go to Deep Springs really want to go there. Randall Munroe, the guy behind the XKCD web comic, once wrote (in a strip) that you don’t become great by setting out to be great, but rather by wanting to do something and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process. If you spend two years at Deep Springs, you’ve demonstrated that you are willing to do things you care about “hard.” IMHO, one of the major distortions of the US college application process is that applicants (and especially their parents) are setting out to be great rather than setting out to pursue what they truly care about. It’s not necessarily the applicants’ fault, either: college brochures pretty much encourage this approach. Of course, deciding not to finish applying to Deep Springs doesn’t mean you’re not willing to do things hard; it just means you decided that it wasn’t for you. Really, Deep Springs is “for” very few people. Until fairly recently it wasn’t “for” women at all. (That is, they only admitted men). ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/67 "2019-03-24T20:45:48Z")
When I took over a previously mismanaged position, I had the pleasure of reviewing all of the employees’ transcripts and resumes. On this basis, I removed a few people who had misrepresented their credentials. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/68 "2019-03-25T01:53:54Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > What is it about that list that strikes you as so profoundly odd? I composed the list quickly, but the idea (as stated in my post) was to list a few universities that were roughly similar in prestige to those in the Ivy League without actually _being_ in the Ivy League. Yes, Berkeley is well-known, but that’s why I included it along with some much more obscure schools. > > As another poster acknowledged, some posts implied that “Ivy League” meant “the most prestigious American universities.” It doesn’t, of course, but I included Berkeley because it’s among the most prestigious American universities but not in the Ivy League. The idea was to include a variety of schools, including some the OP might be familiar with, and assert that these are all broadly considered top-tier US schools by those who know what they’re looking at. The oddity is not that you counted Berkeley up with Ivy League (I agree with that) but that you seem to say it is similar to the other colleges on your list. > [@](#): > > For someone who isn’t all that familiar with the US higher education market, a school called “The University of Chicago” might sound like a solid-but-generic big city university. Because of my own education and socioeconomic status, I happen to know that it’s a both very rigorous school and where fun goes to die. Many aspects of higher ed are counterintuitive. NYU is probably better known than U of C, but if you’re applying for jobs after graduating with an undergrad economics degree, you want it to be from U of C. The converse is likely true if you applying for jobs with a film degree. I shipped a lot of money to the University of Chicago. My daughter does have an econ degree from there - and while she struggled with econometrics, she has found that in grad school the assumption was that she was much better at math than anyone who went to lesser schools. > [@](#): > > IMHO, most employers hiring for most jobs don’t really consider specific school rankings but rather bin them into broad categories like these, in roughly ascending order of prestige: > > - AA degree from a community college > - Undergrad degree from a satellite state school like the University of Wisconsin - Whitewater > - Undergrad degree from a good flagship state school like The Ohio University (its pedantic name notwithstanding) > - Undergrad degree from a highly selective or otherwise elite private school like Pomona or Haverford / undergrad degree from an outstanding flagship state school like Berkeley > - Undergrad degree from an ivy league university Depends strongly on the company. My company had a list of schools they recruited from, and being strongly engineering and CS based not all Ivy League schools were on it, and many non-Ivies (including state schools) were. So it strongly depends on the field - and for the general public, I doubt an unknown school could be considered prestigious. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/69 "2019-03-25T12:15:22Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I was actually invited to apply to Deep Springs, after getting a crazy-good score on my PSAT. I submitted an initial application, and was then invited to complete a full application. The full application required something like seven detailed essays on my educational experiences and life goals, in an era (early 1980s) in which a lot of schools didn’t require any sort of essay at all. I was invited to apply to Deep Springs as well in the same time period. Didn’t do it, though. The college I did apply to required an essay - I must have done reasonably well on it, since I was accepted without an interview. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/70 "2019-03-25T13:14:51Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > - Undergrad degree from a good flagship state school like The Ohio University (its pedantic name notwithstanding) The name is The Ohio State University. (Ohio University does not use the arrogant “The”.) Go Blue! ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/71 "2019-03-25T13:44:28Z")
While getting a letter from Deep Springs asking for you to apply means that you got a very good SAT score, it doesn’t mean you got a ridiculously high score. My guess is that at least several hundred students get such a letter each year, perhaps even several thousand. Furthermore, the SAT scores of the students at Deep Springs are among the highest in the U.S., but they’re not the highest. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/72 "2019-03-25T13:51:37Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > While getting a letter from Deep Springs asking for you to apply means that you got a very good SAT score, it doesn’t mean you got a ridiculously high score. My guess is that at least several hundred students get such a letter each year, perhaps even several thousand. Furthermore, the SAT scores of the students at Deep Springs are among the highest in the U.S., but they’re not the highest. Agreed (though I think I got the letter based on PSAT scores, not SAT scores - though, since it was 35 years go, I could be wrong). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/73 "2019-03-25T13:53:52Z")
Deep Springs College is not for everyone. It’s _really_ rural, tiny, all male (until very recently) and only a two-year school. And the students are expected to work on the ranch. (On the other hand, it’s tuition free.) All of that necessarily limits its appeal, which might explain why it sends so many letters. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278/74 "2019-03-25T16:18:32Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Let me give you a humorous example: > > Remember the movie\* BIG with an early Tom Hanks? > > There’s a scene in there where the [Josh is being interviewed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsDj2fzEGdM) at the MacMillan toy company. > > The guy interviewing him sees that he’s missed a few boxes on the application and asks, “Uhh…where did you go to school?” > > “Wellll…it was called…George Washington.” > > And suddenly the guy is impressed. > > Josh is telling the truth, of course – but how many George Washington Elementary Schools are there, particularly around the Atlantic states? The guy interviewing him, though, is assuming Josh is talking about George Washington University. A quick search of its rankings around that time puts it in the top 50 among U.S. universities. > > Someone interrupts but that’s okay because the interview is basically over; Josh is hired based on the implied successful completion of degree requirements at a prestigious university. Nothing is asked about his grades or expertise – there’s only a brief (almost incredulous) mention that it was “all in computers?” > > I was mid-way through college when that movie came out and even back then I was being told, “Don’t worry, now-a-days a four-year degree really takes longer; even the jocks who get first dibs on classes take at least five.” > > Well, true or not, the guy interviewing Josh is impressed that he (implies that he) finished in four years. > > Of course, getting IN is one thing, getting OUT is another thing, and getting THROUGH is still another. Lots of people who get in don’t finish. > And, as we’ve discussed around this board several times (because the question just keeps coming up) a degree and its source tend to be less important forty years after you graduate, but they are certainly important when you’re starting out in the job market. You probably won’t find an esquire from Berkeley Law School clerking for _Sarasota Sam’s Speedtrap Specialists_ and you probably won’t find a graduate of [Western Michigan University’s Thomas Cooley Law School](https://abovethelaw.com/2018/12/the-10-worst-law-schools-in-the-country-2018/) on Ruth Bader Ginsberg’s list of top intern candidates. > –G! > > - Whether or not it had the alternate ending 😃 The funny thing about that scene is that during the 80s George Washington was not a particularly prestigious college. Later a college president was named who wanted to increase the prestige of the university. He dramatically raised tuition until it was one of the most expensive colleges in the country. Since people, especially foreigners, think what is expensive must be good, more people started applying. This meant more people were refused admission and GW started rising up the ranks and is relatively prestigious today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-how-college-works/831278.md?page=3)