# A question about keeping kosher for observant Jews. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 10, 2000, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980 "2000-06-10T21:57:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2000, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/1 "2000-06-10T21:57:24Z")
Visiting our local Baskin Robbins last night with the family, I noticed a sign on the freezer case that claimed that B-R ice creams are kosher. The notice even pointed out the flavors that, because they contain miniature marshmallows, are not kosher. I’m happy to take them at their word regarding the fact that the product that comes in on the loading dock meets all requirements for being labeled “kosher,” but I can’t help wondering if that’s as far as the store’s behavior has to go to satisfy an observant kosher-keeping Jew. Do the kids scooping the ice cream have to use seperate utensils when serving the non-kosher varieties? Or are those equipment hygiene protocols that satisfy the Health Department enough to satisfy the local rabbi? The kid behind the counter didn’t even know the sign was there until I pointed it out to him, and he had no clue about the answer to my question. So does a _kosher_ plain vanilla cone become _trafe_ if it gets served up by a scooper that was last dipped in the Rocky Road? Does the two-second bath in the basket of running water render the scoop okay to make a kosher cone, or does it need to be sterilized (or even kept separate all together)? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2000, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/2 "2000-06-10T22:50:40Z")
For someone who is orthodox and strictly kosher, you are correct, the scoop having hit the non-kosher ice cream becomes _traif_ (impure). Simply washing won’t do it, it’s a ritual impurity; for instance, if the non-kosher ice cream was a meat-milk mixture, the scoop would have to be buried for a period of time before it was ritually clean. Thus, the B-R kosher ice cream is not sufficient for orthodox. For someone who keeps a less strict form of kosher (such as many Conservatives), washing the scoop would be sufficent. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/3 "2000-06-11T00:33:55Z")
I was told in Hebrew school that dishes run through the dishwasher are cleaned in water hot enough to render everything kosher, which is why Jewish families need two sets of everything BUT they only need ONE dishwasher. This is also why some “kosher” restaurants serve dairy during the morning and meat in the afternoon to allow time to run everything thru the dishwasher. So, (getting to the point here), if you see the ice-cream scoop come out of the dishwasher, it’s probably OK to eat the ice cream that touches it. One more point, courtesy of my good Orthodox friend is that in some cases, there’s no reason for certain foods NOT to be kosher. It’s a matter of whether the factory is inspected for kashruth. Some companies have contractors whose plants are inspected, and those products are kosher, while other contractors’ aren’t. This is why some products are kosher, while others aren’t, even within the same brand name. Robin 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NickyLarson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b2d939/32.png) [@NickyLarson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NickyLarson)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/4 "2000-06-11T00:49:37Z")
The last time I was in a kosher kitchen, I’m pretty sure there were two dishwashers. What I really want to know: > [@](#): > > Simply washing won’t do it, it’s a ritual impurity; for instance, **if the non-kosher ice cream was a meat-milk mixture** , the scoop would have to be buried for a period of time before it was ritually clean. (Bolding mine) What kind of ice cream is a **meat-milk** mixture? I’m racking my brain here. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/5 "2000-06-11T00:58:45Z")
If the ice cream has, say, animal derivatives in it, that counts as meat, no matter how far removed the final product is from the actual animal. I can’t speak about the dishwashers, tho. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/6 "2000-06-11T01:49:47Z")
Actually, at Baskin Robbins the scoops are not run through the dishwasher after every use; they are stored in a “well” filled up to the drain holes with water, with fresh water constantly being added. I’m not real sure of the construction of the devices, but they do undergo several complete water changes per hour. I didn’t notice whether they had any facilities for ritual burial of the scoops, although the parking lot was in pretty sad shape. Maybe I was just _assuming_ those were potholes. 😉 B-R’s signs were pretty clear that all the rules of _kashruth_ were conformed to. So I guess if any Orthodox Jews should stop me on the street and ask me for my opinion about whether they should buy the product, I’ll just tell them to stick with the pre-packed quarts (presumably these remain kosher from the factory to the consumer’s freezer). I’d hate to see Baskin Robbins lose a potential customer, when they’re making an effort. One final flippancy, if you’ll forgive it: In what way is cream _not_ an animal derivative? ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/7 "2000-06-11T01:59:37Z")
What kind of ice cream is a meat-milk mixture? Well, the test markets kinda killed it, but the “Cheeseburger Ripple Surprise” was one of the more unusual B&R flavors…(j/k) ---
**Author:** ![curwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@curwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curwin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/8 "2000-06-11T02:44:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > For someone who is orthodox and strictly kosher, you are correct, the scoop having hit the non-kosher ice cream becomes _traif_ (impure). Simply washing won’t do it, it’s a ritual impurity; for instance, if the non-kosher ice cream was a meat-milk mixture, the scoop would have to be buried for a period of time before it was ritually clean. > > Thus, the B-R kosher ice cream is not sufficient for orthodox. For someone who keeps a less strict form of kosher (such as many Conservatives), washing the scoop would be sufficent. > \*\* As someone who worked for the major US kashrut organizations in a number of factories (including a couple of ice-cream factories), I can tell you that what you wrote above is not technically accurate. First of all, ritual impurity has nothing to do with kashrut. Ritual impurity as described in the bible and Talmud has not been observed for hundreds of years. Secondly, for almost all foods, the rule is – “as it absorbs, so it emits”. In other words, if a spoon was used in a meat hot soup, it could not be used to serve hot cheese, because the meat that was “absorbed” would be “emitted” with the heat from the cheese. But for almost all foods served cold (certainly including ice-cream), there is no “emmission” of any previously “absorbed” food, so there is no problem. Obviously, this is going on the idea that the scoop is clean, but usually that is true anyway, or the customer can ask. Now you may ask – why is this not done at people’s homes? Well, as you can imagine, mixing utensils can easily lead to confusion and eventually cause someone to trip up. But in an ice-cream store, where there is no real problem of absorption and certainly not emmission (don’t order the hot fudge), and the kosher customer knows to beware, there isn’t much room for slipping up. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/9 "2000-06-11T03:40:30Z")
Shavua Tov! 🙂 To clear a few things up: > [@](#): > > \*\* > For someone who is orthodox and strictly kosher, you are correct, the scoop having hit the non-kosher ice cream becomes traif (impure). Simply washing won’t do it, it’s a ritual impurity; for instance, if the non-kosher ice cream was a meat-milk mixture, the scoop would have to be buried for a period of time before it was ritually clean. \*\* As has been already pointed out, this statement is not technically accurate. Foods that are cold do not have any effect on the utensils used to prepare them. (Note that some foods, though served at a low temperature, are still considered hot due to their spicy flavor, eg: radishes and mustard.) Thus, ice-cream scoops at BR are kosher, despite the non-kosher flavors. \*\* > [@](#): > > …I was told in Hebrew school that dishes run through the dishwasher are cleaned in water hot enough to render everything kosher, which is why Jewish families need two sets of everything BUT they only need ONE dishwasher. This is also why some “kosher” restaurants serve dairy during the morning and meat in the afternoon to allow time to run everything thru the dishwasher. \*\* This is false. [ul] [li]Conventional dishwashers are not hot enough to make dishes neutral from the perspective of kashrut. On top of that, many dishes used in the modern kitchen are not “kasherable” to begin with. On top of **that** , the process of making a dairy utensil neutral in order to use it then for meat is frowned upon severly by the Rabbis.[/li][li]If your Jewish friends have only one dishwasher, then they use it for either meat or dairy, but not both. (This is how my kitchen works… I have a dairy dishwasher currently sitting empty and a sinkful of meat dishes from shabbos that I am avoiding washing by writing this post.)[/li][li]Any “kosher” resturaunt that serves meat and dairy out of the same kitchen is not “kosher.” Period.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/10 "2000-06-11T03:56:59Z")
Gelatin is a product made from hooves. I know i have seen gelatin on the list of ingredients in several ice creams so I assume those would be meat and milk mixtures. The non fat ranch dip i had the other day had gelatin in replacement of its milk fat. I wonder if low fat ice creams have a similar substitution. I find it interesting the number of food items with insect derived products. There is a food colorant that comes from insects. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/11 "2000-06-11T07:39:17Z")
How about food which could be Kosher (ie is not traif, or meat/dairy mixtures), but is not certified as being Kosher? Would that make a serving utensil or plate, etc unclean? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/12 "2000-06-11T08:00:28Z")
Daniel, that would depend on how observant a person is. For instance, when I was in Israel, I bought a yummy coffee ice cream thingie at a “kosher-style” cafe. A very religious friend of mine looked longingly at my purchase, but when I offered him a sip, he refused, because the cafe was not kosher. All the food in this place is kosher, but they remained open on Saturdays and had lost their kashrut certification. My friend would not buy ice cream at all at the Baskin Robbins mentioned in the OP. (I have NO idea how he survives, he lives in Calgary.) There are varying levels of kashrut; I’m not sure how it works in the US, but in Israel there are a few different groups who maintain kashrut. For instance, the political party/religious movement Agudat Yisrael can confer upon a restaurant the certification of Kosher l’Mehadrin, which I believe is considered to be the highest level of kashrut among Ashkenazim. As Mizrachim do not necessarily follow the same interpretations of the law in all cases (most notably during Pesach), a very religious Mizrachi might not care if a place is Kosher l’Mehadrin or not. My local Noah’s Bagels, which claims to be kosher, served regular bagels during Pesach. As I did not keep Pesach Kosher this year, I didn’t mind personally, but I felt that this was a violation of Kashrut and they should lose their certification. Basically, there is a lot more involved that the matter of how the food is prepared. ---
**Author:** ![shulmahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@shulmahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shulmahn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/13 "2000-06-11T15:26:01Z")
I went over to jewfaq [http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm#Utensils](http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm#Utensils) and saw this > [@](#): > > \*\* > Utensils > > Utensils (pots, pans, plates, flatware, etc., etc.) must also be kosher. A utensil picks up the kosher “status” (meat, dairy, pareve, or treyf) of the food that is cooked in it or eaten off of it, and transmits that status back to the next food that is cooked in it or eaten off of it. Thus, if you cook chicken soup in a saucepan, the pan becomes meat. If you thereafter use the same saucepan to heat up some warm milk, the fleishig status of the pan is transmitted to the milk, and the milchig status of the milk is transmitted to the pan, making both the pan and the milk a forbidden mixture. > > Kosher status can be transmitted from the food to the utensil or from the utensil to the food only in the presence of heat, thus if you are eating cold food in a non-kosher establishment, the condition of the plates is not an issue. Likewise, you could use the same knife to slice cold cuts and cheese, as long as you clean it in between, but this is not really a recommended procedure, because it increases the likelihood of mistakes. > > Stove tops and sinks routinely become non-kosher utensils, because they routinely come in contact with both meat and dairy in the presence of heat. It is necessary, therefore, to use dishpans when cleaning dishes (don’t soak them directly in the sink) and to use separate spoon rests and trivets when putting things down on the stove top. > > Dishwashers are a kashrut problem. If you are going to use a dishwasher in a kosher home, you either need to have separate dish racks or you need to run the dishwasher in between meat and dairy loads. > > You should use separate towels and pot holders for meat and dairy. Routine laundering kashers such items, so you can simply launder them between using them for meat and dairy. > > Certain kinds of utensils can be “kashered” if you make a mistake and use it with both meat and dairy. Consult a rabbi for guidance if this situation occurs. \*\* Just some “food for thought” (oh I kill myself some mornings) … ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-keeping-kosher-for-observant-jews/21980/14 "2000-06-11T21:43:59Z")
**shulmahn** posted: [QUOTE] \*\* I went over to jewfaq [http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm#Utensils](http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm#Utensils) and saw this > [@](#): > > Dishwashers are a kashrut problem. If you are going to use a dishwasher in a kosher home, you either need to have separate dish racks or you need to run the dishwasher in between meat and dairy loads. > \*\* Again, not technically accurate from the Orthodox perspective. According to the law, the regular cycle of a dishwasher is not hot enough to kasher itself. In order to render a utensil neutral, one must heat it beond the temperature at which it is normally used. Thus, heated stones are placed into pots full of boiling water to “sueprheat” thier contents, and the insides of ovens are kashered with open flame (blowtorches usually). Dishwashers are problematic. Most opinions hold that thier porcelain interiors render them unkasherable. Some opinions (including Rav Tendler) hold that a heated brick added to the hottest rinse cycle can, IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, kasher a dishwasher.