# A question about "Ricers" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211 "2007-02-14T16:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/21 "2007-02-14T22:02:55Z")
[QUOTE=Philster] Yeah, most Vettes are not Z06’s and at least one mag showed the WRX outgunning the Cobra, as the lack of traction control, fewer gears and rear-wheel drive spelled doom: it lost to the WRX in accel tests. Most Cobras and Vettes sold recently will lose to the top of the line WRX that was produced. Sorry; lots of gears, 4wd, lighter wieght and some traction control are much more effective than just throwing more torque and HP than the rear wheels can handle. [/QUOTE] I’m going to need cites for it outgunning the Cobra. My cites show a 2005 GT running 1/4 mile in 13.5 seconds, the same as the WRX STi. The STi beat it 0-60, but this is the 05GT we’re talking about. The 04 Cobra beat it 0-60, and did a 12.9 in the 1/4 mile. As for the vettes, no way. Every vette made ithe past 7 years has done the 1/4 mile in less than 13.5 seconds. Most of them will also beat the WRX Sti 0-60 as well. cite: [http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html](http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html) ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/22 "2007-02-14T22:12:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, the aforementioned Z06 and several other european cars can beat it, albeit at twice the price. Or are you arguing that they can’t beat it in everyday driving? I’d need to see a cite for that. Yes. Hence the qualifier “real world driving”. The fastest point-to-point cars are all generally AWD, including the Veyron, a RWD with a large engine may do the 1/4 marginally faster but cannot possibly hope to outhandle a lightweight AWD rally car. Sorry, that was worded poorly. By “Point-to-point”, I don’t mean in a straight line. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/23 "2007-02-14T22:17:37Z")
**Necros** , [even though it was a while ago,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=154342) I pass the torch on to you. While I have been periferal to the scene for some time in the Sacramento area, I have fallen out of the loop. Keep the faith, and fight the good fight! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It’s also VERY pleasing to see some respect being given to the import scene finally. I have tried to defend it to the end, but it seems that no matter how many well done clean looking rides I describe, someone posts links to the biggest whale tailed idiot-mobile in existence. Tristan- who want’s a WRX REALLY badly. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/24 "2007-02-14T22:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] Yes. Hence the qualifier “real world driving”. The fastest point-to-point cars are all generally AWD, including the Veyron, a RWD with a large engine may do the 1/4 marginally faster but cannot possibly hope to outhandle a lightweight AWD rally car. Sorry, that was worded poorly. By “Point-to-point”, I don’t mean in a straight line. [/QUOTE] Correct me if I am wrong, but the WRC cars typically race on rough, unpaved surfaces as well as regular roads, right? I submit that a corvette on a paved surface will outperform a WRX pretty easily. It can handle an immense load of lateral G force, is pretty well balanced given the monstrous engine it has, and has more power. WRX outdoing a camaro or mustang..possibly. A late model vette? No. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/25 "2007-02-14T22:29:21Z")
I bet he hit the nitrous if he broke 'em loose at 60. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/26 "2007-02-14T22:39:38Z")
I should add that I am not a rice-hater 😃 I owned a lightly modified Eagle Talon TSi AWD for a time, and enjoyed the heck out of it. I like the import tuner cars, and respect the hell out of them, but if you’re buying one off the lot thinking you have the baddest car around…well, you don’t. For Michigan weather, I would definitely take my Talon back as opposed to a uber-v8 car like a cobra, but for the sunny states, there is no doubt that the Vette is the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/27 "2007-02-14T22:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the WRC cars typically race on rough, unpaved surfaces as well as regular roads, right? I submit that a corvette on a paved surface will outperform a WRX pretty easily. It can handle an immense load of lateral G force, is pretty well balanced given the monstrous engine it has, and has more power. WRX outdoing a camaro or mustang..possibly. A late model vette? No. OK, there’s a few factors involved here, but you’re most likely right(you bastard!). Damn, that Z06 is really the HMS Dreadnought of cars these days. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/28 "2007-02-14T23:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] OK, there’s a few factors involved here, but you’re most likely right(you bastard!). Damn, that Z06 is really the HMS Dreadnought of cars these days. 🙂 [/QUOTE] It’s pretty much a race car made street legal. I used to think my Eagle Talon was an awesome car. Back in its time, when Vettes had 245 HP, having a 210HP car was killer, especially when you could up it to 250 with just a tweak here and there. Sadly, the days of the 245 HP vette are long gone. I have been a big fan of turbo 4 cylinders for a long time, but there really is no replacement for displacement. After all, you can always put a turbo on a V-8, too 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/29 "2007-02-14T23:41:18Z")
Thanks, **Tristan**! To be honest, I’m not sure how representative I am of import car culture (I have a bunch of cars, from old ones (1968 Cadillac Eldorado) to a new SUV (2005 Inifiniti FX) and I don’t street race. I rally, and do autocross, and made it out to the dragstrip last year for the first time, and just happen to hangf out with a bunch of people with crazy modded cars. I’m a big fan of performance, whether it be big blocks or little lawnmower engines, and I find a lot of other people are, too. The dorks who disparage foreign cars tend to be in the minority IME. I stopped by a car gathering at Sonic last summer in the 7, and was the only import there. Didn’t stop quite a few people from being interested in my car, including a guy who used to have a 79 RX7, and wanted to check out what an FD was like. 🙂 **crazyjoe** , Stis and EVOs may be designed as rally cars, but traction is a huge issue on the street. While a C5 or C6 will eat an Evo on a racetrack, stock-for-stock with identical drivers, it’s a lot easier to be a bad driver on the street, and things like AWD and a higher powerband made those zingy 4-bangers easier to launch and drive than a torque monster RWD Vette. If two random schmoes, one in a well-modded EVO and one in a newZ06, pulled up a stoplight and they decided to go 0-100, and I knew nothing about the drivers, I think I would make the safer bet and put my money on the Evo. In a real world situation, with slick pavement, sand on the road, potholes, etc., an Evo is just easier to drive fast. Nissan is about to release their Skyline GT-R (R35), and one of the targets they are gunning for is the new Z06 (though the 911 Turbo is the real benchmark). 3.5L twin-turbo V6, AWD. Some people might call it a ricer car, I guess… 😛 The general rule, when talking about cars: There’s always someone faster. Having the atitude that your car is the fastest car EVAR is not good, whether you drive an 07 Z06 or a 96 Civic DX. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/30 "2007-02-14T23:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=Necros] … Here, for your watching enjoyment. Buschur Racing EVO (four door economy car…well, sorta 😉 ) vs. new Corvette Z06: [http://dsmvideo.vidiac.com/video/14122cbd-96fc-4fbb-863e-98a100a3ef25.htm](http://dsmvideo.vidiac.com/video/14122cbd-96fc-4fbb-863e-98a100a3ef25.htm) [/QUOTE] Now, wait just a minute. Did you see the part of the video (you have to pause to read it) that tells us the video was 100% computer generated, to create the illusion of street racing? Please understand, I’m dissing _only the video_. I have no doubt that some Japanese cars (I won’t use that ethnic slur) can be tweaked to be truly stunning in street trim. I do not accept any claims of a fire breathing four banger smoking a recent Corvette, if the Corvette’s driver is actually involved in the race. The act of zipping past a Corvette on the interstate probably means that the Vette’s driver ignored you. It’s hard for some zoomers to understand, but there is no dishonor in not accepting every challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/31 "2007-02-14T23:58:40Z")
**AskNott** , that was a joke. Street racing is illegal. You will find disclaimers like that all over racing videos. You really, really think nothing out there can beat a recent model Corvette? They are decently fast, but they aren’t THAT fast. I can name ten people I know, off the top of my head, with cars who will absolutely demolish a stock Corvette in any race you choose. Corvettes are fast, nice cars. I like them. I considered buying a 2003 Z06. But they are not the be-all, end-all of performance in automotive form. BTW, one of my known associates is picking up his new four-cylinder soon. 0-60 in ~2.5 seconds. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/32 "2007-02-15T00:34:47Z")
I didn’t say “nothing out there can beat a recent model Corvette.” I’m saying it’s unlikely that any street legal four banger can. There are faster, better handling cars in production, but none of them have four cylinders. I fully recognize that Japanese auto makers have outpaced most of what the US has made. However, this is about showroom stock Corvettes vs. wildly hopped-up Japanese 4-bangers. I’m not even talking about the Callaway Corvette or the Dodge Viper. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/33 "2007-02-15T04:26:01Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] I didn’t say “nothing out there can beat a recent model Corvette.” I’m saying it’s unlikely that any street legal four banger can. There are faster, better handling cars in production, but none of them have four cylinders. [/quote] Street legal does not equal ‘stock’. Those 700 HP Supras are fully street legal. The thing about the small forced induction engines is that they are very strong and can handle a lot of boost. This means that they are incredibly cheap and easy to modify to produce dramatic horsepower gains. You can sometimes gain 30-40 horsepower with nothing more than a reflash of the engine computer software. For example, have a look at the dyno chart on [this page](http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1192158). A stock WRX showed 195 horsepower at the rear wheels, and 231 ft/lbs of torque. Changing the air filter and putting a 3" turbo-back on the engine, along with a reflash, increased it to 231 WHP and 302 lb/ft of torque. The engine itself is pretty much untouched. Adding a cold air intake and uppipe, along with a new ECU reflash bumps the power to 242 horsepower at the rear wheels and 342 lb/ft of torque. That’s 50 more horsepower and over 100 more lb/ft of torque by just playing around with the plumbing on the engine and changing the ECU programming. A stock WRX already runs 0-60 in under 6 seconds. $2000 worth of add-ons will drop it under 5 seconds. If you spend $5,000, you can do things like put on a bigger turbo, different injectors, high capacity fuel pump, and push these little 2-liter engines up into the 450+ HP range. The thing about the 2L boxer engine in the WRX is that the block is really strong and will absorb the power. So until you get into really exotic horsepower territory you don’t have to crack open the engine at all. I’ve had both kinds of cars - a 400+ horsepower Camaro muscle car, and a Saab 9-2x (rebadged WRX). The Camaro was a hoot to punch off the line - the sound of that small block V8 and the rush of all that torque was great fun. But my 227 HP Saab with the 2L engine would eat that car if we did a cross-country run on average roads with a reasonable number of turns. The Saab/WRX has a long-throw suspension that eats potholes and surface irregularities while still allowing the car to track and keep its grip. The Camaro had super-hard suspension, and little bumps would throw it off line and make it somewhat scary to drive fast in the twisties. And that big torque rear wheel drive was all too ready to let go and cause the car to want to swap ends if I hit a bump while using power to accelerate out of a curve. I feel much more comfortable driving the Saab fast than I did the Camaro. > [@](#): > > I fully recognize that Japanese auto makers have outpaced most of what the US has made. However, this is about showroom stock Corvettes vs. wildly hopped-up Japanese 4-bangers. I’m not even talking about the Callaway Corvette or the Dodge Viper. Not ‘wildly hopped up’. We’re talking about a WRX with a stock suspension, stock transmission, stock engine, but with some induction changes and an ECU reflash putting out 400 HP, running 0-60 in under 4 seconds (AWD traction helps tremendously here), and having a suspension that’s really designed for the street and poor roads, vs a car with a suspension designed for the track. Oh, and the WRX might be 500 lbs lighter, and the boxer engine sits low in the frame giving the car a low center of gravity. I used to be a skeptic of these little 4-banger engines. No more. I’ve seen what they can do. Put them in a small all-wheel-drive car, and you’ve got hell on wheels. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/34 "2007-02-15T06:14:59Z")
Why don’t we ask [the Stig?](http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtml) According to the Power Lap chart, the Z06 is the second-fastest American car tested, after the Ford GT, and 2.4 seconds (1.22.4 vs. 1.24.8) faster than the best off-the-shelf Japanese car, the Mitsubishi Evo FQ400. So yeah, it’s a fast car, but it’s not as fast as some European supercars, and it’s not that much faster than some (much cheaper) Japanese competitors. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/35 "2007-02-15T08:40:36Z")
But again, that’s on a track. No one is disputing that a Z06 is a fantastic track car. The point is that on a typical street with bumps, potholes, oil patches, and other hazards, a car like a WRX STi or an Evo can make up the difference in sheer sure-footedness. A tightly wound track car hops all over the place when it hits those imperfections. A rally car with long-throw suspension just sucks it up and keeps going. If a bump puts a tire or two in the air, the others are still making traction. It’s a whole different ball game. ---
**Author:** ![Beaucarnea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c0e974/32.png) [@Beaucarnea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beaucarnea)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/36 "2007-02-15T14:46:41Z")
**lieu** , was the car [drifting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drifting_(motorsport))? We have a [Toyota Corolla](http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum/) that is more fun to drive sideways than drag, though it will do both admirably. If either of us wants to show off, we pull out hard and cut the wheels so that we perform a controlled skid out of a turn, and my guy can drift through just about any turn without crossing lanes. Drifting with small but powerful imports has a cult following (originated in Japan) and the horsepower can rival some muscle cars. There is an anime series called Initial D, and [here](http://www.initialdthemovie.com/) is the live action trailer. But if it helps any, some guy has been bringing a deuce to the local drift club, and has modified it to drift. Wish you could have seen his first attempt, though. Didn’t remove the traction bars and hopped like a snared jackrabbit for about 60 seconds before he realized he wasn’t going to break loose. We laid in the grass laughing when he got out to stomp out little piles of flaming rubber. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/37 "2007-02-15T16:47:49Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] I didn’t say “nothing out there can beat a recent model Corvette.” I’m saying it’s unlikely that any street legal four banger can. There are faster, better handling cars in production, but none of them have four cylinders. [/QUOTE] Well, I don’t know what measurements you’d prefer to be shown to prove it, but you’re wrong. Very, very wrong. We’re talking modified cars here, not fresh-off-the-showroom-floor Honda Accords. It’s amazing what you can do with mods, as **Sam Stone** pointed out. As I mentioned, I only have 1.3L (sorry, no cylinders at all), but I would go head to head with a stock C5, even on a track, any day, without fear. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/38 "2007-02-15T17:49:54Z")
Drifting? No, I don’t believe so. At least not by my admittedly limited exposure to the feat, namely through commercials, trailers, etc. This was more of a brief, violent, quarterspin lurch on a straightaway. Today’s drive in displayed in that spot where this occured two new tire burn marks, both starting and ending at the same distance, of I’m guessing about 45 to 50 feet in length. I’m no novice to horsepower, though not nearly as versed as many who’ve contributed here… everything from old muscle to the Richard Perry Experience to hot dogging in a 505 Viper last week. But this guy’s “explosion” just kinda caught me off guard. I’m really enjoying reading everyone’s comments and experience here and have a newfound respect for the little engine that could. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/39 "2007-02-15T17:51:37Z")
Heh, but you’re talking about a C5, not a C6 Z06. Your car probably cost about the same new as the C5 did. C6 Z06 will do the Nordschleife more quickly thann STi, or a Lamborghini Murcielargo, or a Porsche 997 Turbo, or a Ferrari F430. It’s a pretty huge leap from the C5. :eek: It’s going to be pretty uneconomical to make a 4 Cyl. car THAT fast. ---
**Author:** ![Nunavut\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e95f7d/32.png) [@Nunavut\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunavut_Boy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211/40 "2007-02-15T19:43:24Z")
Here’s a video from the British show Top Gear showing a Mitsubishi Evo VIII keeping pressure on a Lamborghini Murcielago \Link\ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-ricers/392211.md?page=3)