# A question about Saving Private Ryan **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 12, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407 "2011-03-12T13:46:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/41 "2011-03-14T18:29:07Z")
I think that when the squad originally captured SBW the reason that they wanted to kill him was based more on revenge then anything else, though practicality did enter into it. Not only had their mate been killed in an insignificant skirmish, but they were all well pissed off being sent on a"propaganda mission for the home front", which to save one soldiers life they were all being put at very considerable risk to their own lives. If the mission had been to take out a runway, or a particulary annoying piece of Anti aircraft Artillery they probably wouldn’t have been so coldly angry at the loss of the medic and the threat to their own lives. That said they would almost certainly killed SBW out of expediency. The Captain did’nt prevent them from performing the execution for fear of comitting a war crime but because he was suffering from what we now call PTSS, but was then called (I believe )Combat Fatigue. He could still fight and kill like an elite soldier in hot blood, but not witness a necessary killing in cold blood. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/42 "2011-03-14T18:49:36Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > The Captain did’nt prevent them from performing the execution for fear of comitting a war crime but because he was suffering from what we now call PTSS, but was then called (I believe )Combat Fatigue. > > He could still fight and kill like an elite soldier in hot blood, but not witness a necessary killing in cold blood. I’m not 100%, but I think it was called “Battle Fatigue.” Regarding Upham and SBW, I always figured that the rest of the troop was wanting to kill SBW as a gut-reaction to Wade being killed. Upham argued vehemently for SBW to be released. If you recall, this was also around the time when Reiben is about ready to desert the mission and, by extension, the army altogether. Reiben and Horvath have their disagreement, and almost come to blows, then bullets. Miller defuses the situation by telling them what he did for a living in the states. I think that Upham’s impassioned pleas worked on Miller’s softer, romantic nature. I think Miller knew that he SHOULDN’T leave SBW alive. But talking about his past made Miller realize that this German soldier, in essence, was a lot like Miller himself: He’s just doing what he’s ordered to do because he wants the war to be over, and he wants to go home to his family. Upham’s the movie’s conscience. And while doing the right thing (ie, acting with a clear conscience) helps you sleep at night, it can also be the absolute worst thing you can do, long-term. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/43 "2011-03-14T19:06:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I disagree with that entirely. Killing Willie the first time they captured him was arguably justified - they couldn’t guard a prisoner, and if they let him go, he’d just rejoin the German army. Killing him at the bridge was a straight up war crime. The front had caught up to them. The area was swarming with Allies setting up to permanently hold the bridge. They were more than adequately supplied and reinforced to hold POWs. Upham doesn’t shoot Willie out of war time necessity, he does it out of petty revenge and self-loathing. Upham has progressed through the film from wide-eyed idealist, to coward, to common murderer. He represents the moral casualties of the war - how it can break people spiritually as well as physically, how war can produce monsters in equal measure to heroes. I’m not sure I agree. Willie surrendered. That makes him a POW and subject to protection as a prisioner. Lacking the ability to guard a prisoner, they let him go - clearly on the condition that he march into captivity: he ‘gave his parole’. Instead, he rejoins his comrades, and proceeds to fight again. Under the Geneva Convention, of course, a POW is not supposed to be punished for escaping and rejoining his army - but soldiers in the field may have a different view of the matter, where the surrender, escape and re-surrender all occur in the same battle. While we can’t know Upham’s motives for sure, I always assumed he was mostly just pissed off that, having saved the guy’s life, he broke his word and failed to surrender. When he surrendered _again_, the thought process may well have been ‘we trusted you the first time’. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/44 "2011-03-14T20:40:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > While we can’t know Upham’s motives for sure, I always assumed he was mostly just pissed off that, having saved the guy’s life, he broke his word and failed to surrender. When he surrendered _again_, the thought process may well have been ‘we trusted you the first time’. That’s exactly the conclusion I had after seeing the movie the first time. Upham felt that SW had betrayed him, and this was on top of all the other “betrayals” he had suffered: Soldiers don’t fight out of brotherhood and sometimes the good guys have to act like the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/45 "2011-03-15T00:20:06Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Although I did have a WTF moment when I realised the soldier shot by the sniper in the French village was Vin Diesal! I’m guessing that SPR was before he became really famous. _(I’m going through my collection of old movies I haven’t sen for years on DVD at the moment, another WTF moment was recognising Chris Rock as a parking attendant in Beverly Hills Cop 2 and Brendan Gleeson as a British airline pilot in Die Hard 2!)_ Remember that at some point, Tom Hanks announces to a guy that all his brothers are dead but it turns out it’s the wrong Ryan? The wrong Ryan is non other than Captain Malcom Reynolds. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/46 "2011-03-15T00:55:09Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Remember that at some point, Tom Hanks announces to a guy that all his brothers are dead but it turns out it’s the wrong Ryan? The wrong Ryan is non other than Captain Malcom Reynolds. Holy crap. I never noticed that. But, of course, now I realize you’re absolutely right. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/47 "2011-03-15T01:16:42Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Remember that at some point, Tom Hanks announces to a guy that all his brothers are dead but it turns out it’s the wrong Ryan? The wrong Ryan is non other than Captain Malcom Reynolds. I didn’t recognize him without tight pants. [QUOTE=snoosnoo] Steamboat Willie was supposed to surrender himself to an Allied unit and become a POW. Instead he is found with the attacking Germans. It’s possible that he ran into a unit of Germans on his way to turn himself in, but it’s more likely that he waited until he was out of sight, then found his way back to his army. [/QUOTE] Which in fairness, who wouldn’t? Especially when you have no idea if the enemy troops you encounter are going to take you prisoner or just shoot you dead. [A Steamboat Willie thread from last year.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=554786) ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/48 "2011-03-15T01:30:53Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Remember that at some point, Tom Hanks announces to a guy that all his brothers are dead but it turns out it’s the wrong Ryan? The wrong Ryan is non other than Captain Malcom Reynolds. No wonder Mal’s so bitter about the war. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/49 "2011-03-15T01:41:16Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > When Upham holds his rifle on the German squad, it’s mere seconds after the P-51 blows up the tank. I don’t think any new Allied soldiers are present - the Germans are all running from the planes bombing the hell out of them. These particular Germans jumped up and were trying to run away, when Upham pulled the rifle on them and told them to drop their rifles. They’re very much still in combat mode, not clean-up mode - if Upham had an automatic weapon and mowed them down instead of giving them a chance to surrender, he would have been perfectly justified in doing so. I could have sworn that the battle ended with a column of Allied armor showing up. I just now realized that what I was remembering were the _German_ tanks showing up. :smack: So that does significantly change the calculus of the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/50 "2011-03-15T02:02:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Holy crap. > > I never noticed that. But, of course, now I realize you’re absolutely right. And in the first _Beverly Hills Cop_, the person that Eddie Murphy gets the banana from (for the “banana in the tailpipe” gag) is **Damon Wayans**. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Credible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a8b319/32.png) [@Justin\_Credible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Credible)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/51 "2011-03-15T05:41:36Z")
Thanks for the German translations; I’ve always wondered what was being said in both of those scenes. Anyone know what became of the soldier who killed Melish? Was he ever seen again on screen after he left the building? ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/52 "2011-03-15T13:17:23Z")
> [@Justin\_Credible](#): > > Anyone know what became of the soldier who killed Melish? Was he ever seen again on screen after he left the building? As far as I know, yeah. Left the building without taking on Upham and disappears into the street. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/53 "2011-03-15T13:34:59Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Sigh, it IS NOT THE SAME SOLDIER. Following the links, I see that you’re right. Wow, they sure look alike in the context of the movie. I wonder what possessed Spielberg to make them look so similar; it’s very confusing. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/54 "2011-03-15T13:40:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I could have sworn that the battle ended with a column of Allied armor showing up. I just now realized that what I was remembering were the _German_ tanks showing up. :smack: So that does significantly change the calculus of the scene. A few minutes later there are what appears to be fresh US soldiers running to the battle, but by then the Germans have all retreated. It’s definitely the planes that chase off the Germans. The shooting is still illegal though - we’ve discussed this several times in the past. If Upham had just shot the German soldiers as they ran away, he’d have been perfectly correct in doing so - soldiers aren’t cops, and a soldier has no duty to give enemies a chance to surrender (especially if he’s outnumbered 6 to 1). Once he did give them a chance, and they did surrender, he had no legal right to shoot any of them, unless they gave some indication they were going to resume combat against him. And the one armed Colonel in the personnel office at the beginning of the movie who first discovers the brothers have all died is Hal from Malcolm in the Middle. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/55 "2011-03-15T13:42:29Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Following the links, I see that you’re right. Wow, they sure look alike in the context of the movie. I wonder what possessed Spielberg to make them look so similar; it’s very confusing. Quite possibly no one had any idea until all the filming was done - the guy who killed Mellish was filmed entirely in studio, while Steamboat Willie’s scenes were all outdoor shots. Could have been weeks apart. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/56 "2011-03-15T21:41:37Z")
At 4:07, Mellish says something which I can’t hear. Anyone have any idea? Also, he starts crying at that moment, any interpretation as to what he’s crying about? Just nerves? Seeing a HY knife having that much effect on him? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/57 "2011-03-15T22:55:25Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Was this deliberate on the part of the writers? It’s not a particularly common name after all. Something I’d wondered too. I’d read Kenneth Sandford’s “_Mark of the Lion: The Story of Charles Upham VC and Bar_” when I was a kid and it left a lasting impression. Having the character called Upham niggled at my suspension of disbelief – not to suggest in any way that the name is unique… but it still niggled a bit, which I guess is just normal if you strongly associate a particular name with a specific person. (Similar thing for me with _Jurassic Park_, and the big game hunter named “Robert Muldoon” – the same name as a famous, or infamous, ex-PM of NZ). ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/58 "2011-03-15T23:35:51Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Following the links, I see that you’re right. Wow, they sure look alike in the context of the movie. I wonder what possessed Spielberg to make them look so similar; it’s very confusing. Hey, everybody makes the mistake. I did it too. Actually I think the movie makes more sense if you think that it is Steamboat Willy in all the scenes. Definitely a big fumble from Spielberg here, no way in hell people didnt make the confusion when he was still in the editing phase. But IMO Saving Private Ryan is so full of cheese that one more slice doesnt piss me off that much. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/59 "2011-03-15T23:38:00Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > And the one armed Colonel in the personnel office at the beginning of the movie who first discovers the brothers have all died is Hal from Malcolm in the Middle. And Walter White from **Breaking Bad**. And Tim Whatley on **Seinfeld**. Bryan Cranston rocks. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407/60 "2011-03-15T23:38:20Z")
> [@Justin\_Credible](#): > > Anyone know what became of the soldier who killed Melish? Was he ever seen again on screen after he left the building? Yeah, he went on to become the President of Austria. I love happy endings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-saving-private-ryan/574407.md?page=4)