# A question about the film The Prestige (major, jumbo spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340 "2010-05-04T23:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/221 "2010-05-10T14:46:56Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > How about Stargates, are they suicide too? (They are explained as sending you through a wormhole, but maybe your original was annihilated, who knows?) > > How do you interpret Nightcrawler’s teleportation (i.e. from the X-men movies)? He has to be a simulacrum by now by your worldview. Stargates are holes in space. You step through. No deconstruction. Nightcrawler’s ability shifts him to an alternate dimension that he can move through more swiftly then shifts him back to ours. It doesn’t deconstruct him. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/222 "2010-05-10T14:51:00Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Stargates are holes in space. You step through. No deconstruction. That’s not true. Right from the start, stargates have been stated to work by deconstructing travellers as they step into the event horizon. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/223 "2010-05-10T14:53:36Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Stargates are holes in space. You step through. No deconstruction. > > Nightcrawler’s ability shifts him to an alternate dimension that he can move through more swiftly then shifts him back to ours. It doesn’t deconstruct him. Couldn’t that be how Tesla’s machine works, too? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/224 "2010-05-10T15:02:53Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > But one of them DID exist five minutes ago, and one of them did not. That is an important difference. One of them once held Danton’s wife’s hand. One of them merely believes he did. You can say, in a sense, they are both “Danton”, but it is also very clear that one of them is the original Danton, and one is not. But if we’re talking quantum mechanics here, then the one that existed five minutes ago teleported across the _while at the same time_ staying where he was. He had two options - teleport and not teleport - and he took them both. The two continuities exist in the same universe. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/225 "2010-05-10T15:07:17Z")
No teleportation is taking place. The copy is created in a new location. The original, who pulled the lever, doesn’t go anywhere. The original’s options are get copied or don’t get copied. By pulling the lever he opts for the machine to make a copy of him elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/226 "2010-05-10T15:10:02Z")
But Tesla was designing a teleporter, not a duplicator. Why can’t we assume that he was successful? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/227 "2010-05-10T15:10:17Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Couldn’t that be how Tesla’s machine works, too? No, because you can’t both step through a hole in space and _not_ step through a hole in space, at the same time. At least one of the two Dantons must have been created. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/228 "2010-05-10T15:14:03Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That’s not true. Right from the start, stargates have been stated to work by deconstructing travellers as they step into the event horizon. I’ll take your word for it. I have no indication of that from the episodes I’ve seen, but I didn’t see any of the first season and my viewing subsequently has been haphazard. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/229 "2010-05-10T15:14:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But Tesla was designing a teleporter, not a duplicator. Why can’t we assume that he was successful? Tesla was \*trying \*to design a teleporter. It was a long while ago I saw the movie, but IIRC it took him a long time and much money to come up with a machine that did anything at all. The impression I got when viewing the movie was that he had inadvertently made a copier rather than a teleporter. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/230 "2010-05-10T15:16:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But if we’re talking quantum mechanics here, then the one that existed five minutes ago teleported across the _while at the same time_ staying where he was. He had two options - teleport and not teleport - and he took them both. The two continuities exist in the same universe. So you’re suggesting that Tesla’s machine collapses the forking probabilities that would generate parallel universes into one universe, in addition to teleporting the man? In effect, Tesla’s machine both works correctly and fails completely? I think that’s an assumption that forces a paradox that pushes the limits of believability, even in science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/231 "2010-05-10T15:16:58Z")
That’s precisely what I’m suggesting. Quantum mechanics is counterintuitive. What you and I see as a paradox… ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/232 "2010-05-10T20:16:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But Tesla was designing a teleporter, not a duplicator. Why can’t we assume that he was successful? Maybe he was trying to make a teleporter and accidently stumbled on a duplicator. It didn’t seem as if he understood what he was doing with creating all those hats and cats. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/233 "2010-05-10T20:41:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No, because you can’t both step through a hole in space and _not_ step through a hole in space, at the same time. At least one of the two Dantons must have been created. I disagree. There’s nothing in the movie that suggests what you said. If we put Danton in a room, close the door, wave a magic wand, open the door and see two Dantons, why must one be an original and one be a copy? Why can’t the magic cause true duplication? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/234 "2010-05-10T22:30:57Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Maybe he was trying to make a teleporter and accidently stumbled on a duplicator. It didn’t seem as if he understood what he was doing with creating all those hats and cats. That’s a possibility. I prefer to think that he was experimenting with some form of quantum teleportion, and accidentally sent his subjects down two seperate legs of the Trousers of Time. Maybe the teleportation affects the past (in this case, nanoseconds to the past), preventing the teleportation. Like how you can go back in time and prevent yourself from going back in time, thus creating two of you? Maybe I read too much science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/235 "2010-05-10T22:34:27Z")
And anyway, if it was a duplicator, why and how did it send its product 100’ away? Looks like teleportation to me - either teleportation of a the original, or teleportation of a copy. ---
**Author:** ![Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8baadc/32.png) [@Nicest\_of\_the\_Damned](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nicest_of_the_Damned)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/236 "2010-05-11T09:00:39Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > In before “It doesn’t matter which one fathered the girl because they’re genetically identical.” Admittedly, genetics is not my area of expertise but google points to some studies that show this isn’t entirely true. One example here: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23276953/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23276953/) At any rate, procreation is one of those things some people get kind of emotional about so I don’t think you can really make a blanket statement that it doesn’t matter based purely on genetics. I mean, if all these characters behaved completely logically and rationally it wouldn’t be much of a story. > [@Alessan](#): > > I got the impression that only one of them actually slept with Sarah. The way they saw it, \*he \*was the one who was married to her - the other one pretended to be him from time to time. I’d like to believe that for the sake of the wife but I am not convinced. It seemed like they each played Borden about half the time, I think the dickish brother would end up playing the husband more than just from time to time. I think that is part of the reason it was so difficult on Sarah. Mild spoiler for the book FWIW: It was definitely suggested that they both slept with the same women and they couldn’t tell them apart. Another thing that is interesting when watching the movie again is trying to figure out which Brother is playing Borden. I think Bale does a good job of making them seem like two different people when you are looking for it but not being so obvious about it that it spoils the surprise the first time. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/237 "2010-05-11T11:24:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This just seems transparently and obviously incorrect, on a simple definitional level. When the guy in the box throws the switch, a perfect duplicate is created in the balcony. This duplicate has consciousness. This consciousness is identical to the consciousness of the guy who threw the switch. I don’t think we’ll ever find common ground on this theme, as your conclusion is to transparently and obviously incorrect to me. One way to look at the disagreement is that you view consciousness as akin to a computer file, where there isn’t really a concept of “original” and “copy”; all copies are perfect and none of them have identity. I view consciousness as more akin to a physical object with an independent existance, and while in science fiction you could say that a perfect duplicate could be made, but the identity of the original cannot be transferred and the new copy is created with its own identity. I strongly object to your statement that “consciousness transferrance is impossible is directly contrary to the text of the film.” In this context I’m making a distinction between transferrence and duplication. I mean transferrence in the sense of sending identity to a remote location. By duplication I mean creating a copy somewhere else while the original object (and its identity) remains unmoved and unchanged. The movie remains silent on this question; neither of our interpretations is prohibited by what is shown to us on screen. Just to clarify, by “identity” I don’t mean just consciousness; I mean anything with a physical existance. I don’t think the hats are being transported either, because that would violate the hat’s identity. Here’s a web definition of identity: “sameness in all that constitutes the objective reality of a thing.” I think you buy into this definition completely. Two things that are the same are the same thing. I do not; the “sameness” part is contrary to the very concept, IMO. I would describe identity (as I use it above) to mean “the persistant objective existance of a thing.” The quantum world differs from the macro-world in several ways; one that I find most fascinating is that all particles with a given set of properties share identity. In the macro-world, every thing has its own unique identity; no two things can ever be truly identical. > [@](#): > > I never said that! The fact that there’s an identical copy of me running around out there in no way reduces the value I place on my own existence. But by that same token, if I _were_ the copy, the fact that there’s an original out there would likewise in no way reduce the value I place on my own existence. I may be a clone, or a quantum duplicate, or whatever, but I still exist, I still feel, and I still have the ability to make a life for myself. Why should the fact that I’m technically only a few days old invalidate any of that? If you had a child, and s/he were killed and replaced with a perfect copy without your knowledge, and then you were told about it, would you grieve? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/238 "2010-05-11T11:41:02Z")
How about my time-travel scenario, mentioned above? Say you build a time machine. You enter it, travel one minute to the past, and prevent yourself from entering the time machine. Now there are two of you - the one who travelled back in time, and the one who didn’t. One of you is exactly one minute older, but other than that, you’re identical. Which is the original, and which is the copy? The time-travellar? But he’s older - he can’t be the copy. The non-time-travellar? But his life was just as linear and uninterrupted as anyone’s. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/239 "2010-05-11T11:43:46Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > In _The Prestige_, the creator of the machine says the copies are perfect. He is waving the magic wand that causes perfect duplication, nevermind your thoughts on perfect measurement. Unless the two resulting Dantons share a collective consciousness, the two Dantons are separate entities with indepenedent identity. That makes them two different things even given perfect duplication. > [@](#): > > When you state that entering a Star Trek transporter is equivalent to suicide, do you ignore the beaming that directly sends you from one place to the next? No, I recognize that it’s the same matter used in reconstructing the new version of you at the new location. I contend that the act of deconstructing your matter into energy kills you. A perfect duplicate of you is created at the destination. I have to ignore Barkley’s mid-transport consciousness, but those who don’t share my view have to ignore the duplicate Riker. Those two episodes collectively disprove any attempt at a coherent interpretation, as they directly and fundamentally contradict each other. > [@](#): > > How about Stargates, are they suicide too? (They are explained as sending you through a wormhole, but maybe your original was annihilated, who knows?) No, there is no action at a distance in the use of wormholes. A wormhole is a fold in spacetime, so the actual physical distance is reduced to effectively (almost) zero. One assumes that stargates are artifical wormholes. The noteworthy distinction is that a wormhole is actually permissable by our real life laws of physics. Identity transfer at a distance is not. > [@](#): > > How do you interpret Nightcrawler’s teleportation (i.e. from the X-men movies)? He has to be a simulacrum by now by your worldview. Heh, nice example. My knee-jerk reaction is that comic books merit as much thought as Road Runner cartoons: none at all. > [@](#): > > I think you’re just being stubborn at this point. I understood your latest example back when I posted [the same thing upthread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12427490&postcount=159). > […] > To argue the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle makes as much sense as a theatre-goer watching _Back to the Future_ and stating that the movie is about parallel universes because “The Vulcan Science Directorate has concluded that time travel is impossible”. This reads as unnecessarily antagonistic. Why call me stubborn for having a conversation with **Miller**? And what does a (hypothetical) made-up Star Trek rule have to do with the fundamental laws of our real universe? I don’t follow your train of thought on that one. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/240 "2010-05-11T11:47:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Why on Earth do you believe the simulacrum would want to kill himself just because the original is dead? He’s riffing on what I said, which wasn’t meant as a generality, but rather a genuine personal answer to the hypothetical. I tend to think he was mocking me, but no harm no foul. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340.md?page=13)