# A question about the film The Prestige (major, jumbo spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340 "2010-05-04T23:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/21 "2010-05-05T18:14:42Z")
Danton really only needed to duplicate himself once, then proceed like Borden did. He didn’t because he made an assumption, which is how all magicians trick people. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/22 "2010-05-05T18:16:05Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > The main actor was willing to experience death for the sake of the trick. Each of those dead bodies was the body of a man who chose to die each night, not a duplicate who was a victim of the original man’s choice. I might be remembering things wrong, but I think Jackman’s character explains that he 's uncertain which one is which. (Is he going to be the man in the box or the man that takes the bow?) How would he ever know for certain? ---
**Author:** ![HenryGale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b782af/32.png) [@HenryGale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HenryGale)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/23 "2010-05-05T18:50:56Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > But that doesn’t mean that both the one remaining behind and the transported one have died in the past. > > \ > > No matter how many duplications occur over time, you can always take the survivor, choose to identify him as being the same person as the original Danton, and identify him with the survivors of each previous duplication–and in this way, mark out a single person who has not died as a result of any of the duplications. You’re missing the point (as I understand it). Angier went into the trick every night, not knowing if he was about to die or not: “Would I be the man in the box or the prestige?” But, regardless of how the machine works, there is 0% chance that the original Angier is still alive. Either the machine teleports the original and the copy remains in the machine, which would mean that Angier was shot dead by his clone the first time the machine was used; or the machine teleports the copy and the original remains in the machine, which would mean the original Angier drowned on opening night. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/24 "2010-05-05T18:56:07Z")
I believe that Frylock’s point is that at the moment of duplication, but before the death, they’re BOTH the original. You don’t necessarily need to identify Machine Guy as the clone or Teleport Guy as the original (or vice versa). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/25 "2010-05-05T19:01:01Z")
One of my favorite moments- and I may be misquoting- is when the theater owner is shown Danton’s new trick and is speechless at first, then says “Pardon me, it’s just that it’s been a long time since I saw real magic”. It’s clear he doesn’t mean “since I saw a trick I couldn’t figure out” or “since I saw a really kick ass act”. It’s one of those throwaway lines that you’d love to hear him elaborate upon. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/26 "2010-05-05T19:08:56Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I believe that Frylock’s point is that at the moment of duplication, but before the death, they’re BOTH the original. You don’t necessarily need to identify Machine Guy as the clone or Teleport Guy as the original (or vice versa). To clarify, my own point can be expressed by what **Illuminatiprimus** said above: “…[the version of Danton who is alive at any given time] has never had to experience death, it was always the other Danton.” **Bouv** and **HenryGale** , do you disagree with _that_? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/27 "2010-05-05T19:14:00Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I believe that Frylock’s point is that at the moment of duplication, but before the death, they’re BOTH the original. You don’t necessarily need to identify Machine Guy as the clone or Teleport Guy as the original (or vice versa). And **Frylock** is wrong. The only way they can both be the original in the only way that matters is if both bodies share a single consciousness, which they clearly don’t. Either the consciousness that was the original Danton is in one body or the other, or it is dead and _neither_ is the original Danton. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/28 "2010-05-05T19:14:34Z")
> [@HenryGale](#): > > You’re missing the point (as I understand it). Angier went into the trick every night, not knowing if he was about to die or not: “Would I be the man in the box or the prestige?” But, regardless of how the machine works, there is 0% chance that the original Angier is still alive. > > Either the machine teleports the original and the copy remains in the machine, which would mean that Angier was shot dead by his clone the first time the machine was used; or the machine teleports the copy and the original remains in the machine, which would mean the original Angier drowned on opening night. Oh, I think I see what you guys are saying. You guys are assuming (I think) that there’s a general rule about Danton’s trick that either says “The person remaining in the machine is always the original” or “The person being teleported is always the original” And you guys are saying one of these rules is true, and whichever is true, its a consequence that the original Danton is no longer alive. That’s a valid argument, but I don’t agree that one of those rules is true. I think neither is. I think the film itself tends (though not with real clarity) also to deny both of these rules. When Danton says he never knows which he’s going to end up being, this seems to presuppose that there’s no way to know in advance whether the original or the teleported one is the original. For what it’s worth (very little) my own view is that _both_ are the original. A closely related view which I adopt every other Thursday is that which is the original is something to be decided through the evolution of conventions, and there’s no a priori answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/29 "2010-05-05T19:18:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And **Frylock** is wrong. The only way they can both be the original in the only way that matters is if both bodies share a single consciousness, which they clearly don’t. Either the consciousness that was the original Danton is in one body or the other, or it is dead and _neither_ is the original Danton. My view is that just as there is no answer to the question “which is the original amoeba?” when an amoeba splits, so there is no answer to the question “Which is the original Danton” when Danton splits? For obscure reasons, I tend to think that _neither_ is the original in the amoeba case, and _both_ are the original in the Danton case. It’s probably mostly a terminological issue, though. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/30 "2010-05-05T19:18:24Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And **Frylock** is wrong. The only way they can both be the original in the only way that matters is if both bodies share a single consciousness, which they clearly don’t. Either the consciousness that was the original Danton is in one body or the other, or it is dead and _neither_ is the original Danton. That depends entirely on what your definition of consciousness is, whether or not a consciousness actually exists, and whether or not the fictional machine in question is capable of duplicating consciousnesses. None of those can be answered with any sort of definitiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/31 "2010-05-05T19:19:23Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Danton really only needed to duplicate himself once, then proceed like Borden did. He didn’t because he made an assumption, which is how all magicians trick people. That depends on what he was trying to accomplish. If he had access to the machine and was trying to do an excellent moving man illusion, once with no death was enough. But it was not longer enough for several reasons. First, Borden was out to get him. Borden had exposed his previous use of a double and crippled him in the bargain. There is no way he would have even tried to do it the same way, albeit with a better double. Second, he was out to get Borden. He blamed Borden for his wife’s death, and for crippling him. The whole point was to frame Borden for his death. Then there was his ego. He couldn’t just do the same trick the same way. He had to up the stakes. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/32 "2010-05-05T19:19:52Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It’s probably mostly a terminological issue, though. Well, it’s certainly terminal. Dunno about logical, though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/33 "2010-05-05T19:20:50Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And **Frylock** is wrong. The only way they can both be the original in the only way that matters is if both bodies share a single consciousness, which they clearly don’t. Do I share a single consciousness with myself as I was one year ago? No I don’t–my consciousness now is a continuation of that consciousness, but it would be strange to say I “share” a consciousness with my past self. I am not presently conscious of what I was conscious of then. It’s the fact that my consciousness _continues_ my past consciousness that makes me the same person as I was before. Similarly, both future Dantons have consciousnesses that _continue_ the consciousness of past Danton. So both Dantons are the same person as the original Danton. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/34 "2010-05-05T19:28:58Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Well, it’s certainly terminal. Dunno about logical, though. 🙂 Booooo! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/35 "2010-05-05T19:33:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > That’s a valid argument, but I don’t agree that one of those rules is true. I think neither is. I think the film itself tends (though not with real clarity) also to deny both of these rules. When Danton says he never knows which he’s going to end up being, this seems to presuppose that there’s no way to know in advance whether the original or the teleported one is the original. No. There is no evidence to support the theory that the machine operates in two distinctly different ways. More to the point, Danton would be _incapable_ of possessing evidence for this claim. Danton does not know in advance because he doesn’t understand how the machine operates, not because the operation of the machine varies between uses. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/36 "2010-05-05T19:34:58Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And **Frylock** is wrong. The only way they can both be the original in the only way that matters is if both bodies share a single consciousness, which they clearly don’t. Either the consciousness that was the original Danton is in one body or the other, or it is dead and _neither_ is the original Danton. Feh. The only way the two Dantons are different are in conservation of mass. And the point is that it’s trivial – they have exactly the same physical features, the exact same memory, the exact same personality. They’re the same dude, just located some yards away. So, yes, the one that’s alive at (almost) the end of the movie wasn’t physically continuous with the one who went to Colorado. But they’re the same person, as are the hundred others, except for a minute or two when their experiences diverged. This is the point of Danton saying he faced death every night. He faced it, because when he flipped the switch, a version of him would die. And there was a sense in which you couldn’t tell which. That is, the one on stage always died, sure. But when Danton closed his eyes on stage, there was a 50% chance that when he opened them he’d be the man in the box or the man on the balcony. But the one who lived never _experienced_ death, because he was always the one on the balcony – and he had the experience of being the man on the balcony 100 times. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/37 "2010-05-05T19:35:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > For what it’s worth (very little) my own view is that _both_ are the original. Nikolai Tesla would agree with you. IIRC, when Tesla and Borden are looking at the field of hats, Borden asks, “Which hat is mine?” and Tesla replies, “They all are.” Tesla clearly takes the view that the duplication process renders the question of which was the original moot. I pretty strongly suspect that Tesla’s speaking with the author’s voice for that scene, although I don’t generally put much weight behind authorial intent. > [@Grumman](#): > > And Frylock is wrong. The only way they can both be the original in the only way that matters is if both bodies share a single consciousness, which they clearly don’t. Either the consciousness that was the original Danton is in one body or the other, or it is dead and neither is the original Danton. No, I think **Frylock** ’s got the right of it. They do share the same consciousness, up to the instant the machine is used. After that, they immediately start to diverge, of course, but that’s not relevant to the question of which was the original. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/38 "2010-05-05T19:47:14Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No. There is no evidence to support the theory that the machine operates in two distinctly different ways. More to the point, Danton would be _incapable_ of possessing evidence for this claim. Danton does not know in advance because he doesn’t understand how the machine operates, not because the operation of the machine varies between uses. No. You’re demanding that there is some special quality of originalness (or, if you like, Dantonness) that is different from looking like Danton, thinking like Danton, acting like Danton, sensing the world like Danton, and having Danton’s memories. There isn’t. The man on the balcony is no less Danton than the man in the box, even though he came into being a second before. Again, Danton isn’t saying there’s no way to know whether the man on the stage ends up being the man in the box or the main on the balcony. Obviously, the man on the stage is always the man in the box. But whenever Danton closes his eyes on stage, Danton then opens his eyes on the balcony. Also, a different but up to that point _absolutely identical_ Danton opens his eyes in the box. When he closes his eyes, Danton doesn’t know what “his” next experience will be – will he open them in the box or on the balcony? Well, the answer is “both.” But the man on the balcony never experiences those minutes of agony in the box. OR, you’re just misreading everyone. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/39 "2010-05-05T19:47:21Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > This is the point of Danton saying he faced death every night. He faced it, because when he flipped the switch, a version of him would die. And there was a sense in which you couldn’t tell which. That is, the one on stage always died, sure. But when Danton closed his eyes on stage, there was a 50% chance that when he opened them he’d be the man in the box or the man on the balcony. I don’t think that’s quite right, either. The man who closed his eyes and flipped the switch has a 100% chance of being the man on the balcony. He also has a 100% chance of being the man in the box. Because, up until he flips the switch, they’re the same person. When he goes to flip the switch, he knows, for a fact, that he is going to be dead inside of five minutes. He also knows, for a fact, that he will be alive up in the balcony. You are, of course, correct in that the man on the balcony will never remember drowning in the tank. But that doesn’t change the fact that every single time he flips the switch, he’s committing an act of suicide. > [@Grumman](#): > > No. There is no evidence to support the theory that the machine operates in two distinctly different ways. More to the point, Danton would be incapable of possessing evidence for this claim. Danton does not know in advance because he doesn’t understand how the machine operates, not because the operation of the machine varies between uses. I don’t think **Frylock** is claiming that the machine operates in two different ways. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/40 "2010-05-05T19:50:00Z")
Popping in to say that I think _The Prestige_ is one of the greatest movies ever. Every time I watch it I feel I’m gaining a deeper understanding of the story and its characters. I love movies like that (another example of this is _Fight Club_). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340.md?page=3)