# A question about the film The Prestige (major, jumbo spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340 "2010-05-04T23:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/41 "2010-05-05T20:03:56Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Danton really only needed to duplicate himself once, then proceed like Borden did. He didn’t because he made an assumption, which is how all magicians trick people. Yeah, but he was **right** to make that assumption – because the evidence shows that Danton is the type of person that will murder a version of himself for ultimately petty reasons. And so any Danton who exists in the same world with another Danton is not safe. It’s circular. But it’s not wrong. I tend to think of Danton as the hero of the movie, and the character I root for. Even though he is a horrendous criminal. He murders a hundred men, he lets an innocent man go the gallows (an innocent man who thought he was saving Danton’s life), and he tries to steal that man’s daughter. Borden (funny how we talk about “him” as a single character) is no saint – he allows his own negligence to lead to the death of Danton’s wife, and he willingly cripples him (albeit after Danton shot off his fingers). But he’s nothing like the horror Danton is revealed to be. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/42 "2010-05-05T20:12:17Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Yeah, but he was **right** to make that assumption – because the evidence shows that Danton is the type of person that will murder a version of himself for ultimately petty reasons. And so any Danton who exists in the same world with another Danton is not safe. It’s circular. But it’s not wrong. > > I tend to think of Danton as the hero of the movie, and the character I root for. Even though he is a horrendous criminal. He murders a hundred men, he lets an innocent man go the gallows (an innocent man who thought he was saving Danton’s life), and he tries to steal that man’s daughter. Borden (funny how we talk about “him” as a single character) is no saint – he allows his own negligence to lead to the death of Danton’s wife, and he willingly cripples him (albeit after Danton shot off his fingers). But he’s nothing like the horror Danton is revealed to be. > > –Cliffy I tend to look at them as two sides of the same coin, really. I don’t think there are lengths that either of them wouldn’t go to. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/43 "2010-05-05T20:15:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But that doesn’t change the fact that every single time he flips the switch, he’s committing an act of suicide. True, but I don’t think Danton sees it this way. (Because he’s forcing himself to ignore the horror of what he’s doing.) He’s halfway convinced himself that he – the Danton telling the story – is the “true” Danton, and he’s been the one lucky enough to survive 100 times. He’s wrong – he’s no truer than the other ones. Certainly the man on the stage becomes the man int he box, every time. But when Danton closes his eyes on stage, his “me” is just as likely to survive as to die – and from the perspective of Danton at the end of the film, he has always been the one to survive. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/44 "2010-05-05T20:17:13Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I tend to look at them as two sides of the same coin, really. I don’t think there are lengths that either of them wouldn’t go to. To me the critical distinction is that when Borden sees his arch-enemy drowning in the tank, he smashes the tank open. When Danton sees his arch-enemy about to hang, he walks away whistling. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/45 "2010-05-05T20:32:23Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > To me the critical distinction is that when Borden sees his arch-enemy drowning in the tank, he smashes the tank open. When Danton sees his arch-enemy about to hang, he walks away whistling. > > –Cliffy Ah. Yes, you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/46 "2010-05-05T20:38:35Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > To me the critical distinction is that when Borden sees his arch-enemy drowning in the tank, he smashes the tank open. When Danton sees his arch-enemy about to hang, he walks away whistling. I might agree, except that I wonder if the issue isn’t just that both of them want to “win” at any cost. Borden smashing the tank open and fishing out a still-living Danton would still let him win; he’d be considered the better magician. Borden had played all his cards - he had found a “magic” machine to do this One Big Trick at a great cost and a big risk of being discovered (not to mention you can only store so many bodies before the volume becomes an issue, so he would have to end the stunt and his magic career could never top that trick), while his rival was pulling off a similar trick using what had to be more mundane means. So I don’t know, if the positions were swapped, maybe Borden might well have been driven to something similar. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/47 "2010-05-05T20:42:33Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Borden had played all his cards - he had found a “magic” machine to do this One Big Trick at a great cost and a big risk of being discovered I assume you meant Danton here. Borden was the one not using the big machine. Go watch Borden’s attempt at rescuing Danton again. He was nearly in tears screaming out Danton’s name. This was not a man motivated by winning. He did not want to see his old friend drown to death. I believe he was motivated by his humanity in this scene. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/48 "2010-05-05T20:43:42Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > > [@phreesh](#): > > > > Probably obvious to others, but, in retrospect, I love the scene where the bird is transported, only we learn that one bird dies in the trick. And then, obviously, that’s essentially EXACTLY what happens in the movie. If you watch it through looking for those sorts of things, there’s just a TON of little pieces that hint at what really going on. Love this movie. > > And the boy watching that trick even gets upset about the bird and when he’s told “look, it’s okay, he’s here” the boy replies “I mean his brother”, and of course Bale’s character suffers death for one brother for his magic. That’s one of the things I really love about the film. They give the correct explanation for \*both \*twists right at the beginning of the film, but of course you don’t realize the significance until the end. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/49 "2010-05-05T21:12:13Z")
I think the “facing death” comments are about the fact that Danton will both live and die. When we closes his eyes, he will drown. But he will also live. So Danton knows that he is about to be tortured and killed, but also that he’ll have no memory of it, because he’ll be the man on the balcony. So he tries to comfort himself with the fact that he won’t remember his death. But that’s not much comfort because no matter how he twists the logic, he WILL die in a few moments. THAT is the root of the question “When my consciousness splits, which one is me?” I’ve tried to replicate this toture/amnesia situation in [this IMHO thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12420338#post12420338). Hop over there and tell me how much I’d have to pay you. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/50 "2010-05-05T21:13:45Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I think the “facing death” comments are about the fact that Danton will both live and die. When we closes his eyes, he will drown. But he will also live. So Danton knows that he is about to be tortured and killed, but also that he’ll have no memory of it, because he’ll be the man on the balcony. > > So he tries to comfort himself with the fact that he won’t remember his death. But that’s not much comfort because no matter how he twists the logic, he WILL die in a few moments. > > THAT is the root of the question “When my consciousness splits, which one is me?” > > I’ve tried to replicate this toture/amnesia situation in [this IMHO thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12420338#post12420338). Hop over there and tell me how much I’d have to pay you. No. He doesn’t know if a duplicate is created far away or if the original is transported and a duplicate created in its place. He literally doesn’t know whether he’s going to be the one drowning or bowing at the end of the trick. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/51 "2010-05-05T22:06:11Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I assume you meant Danton here. Borden was the one not using the big machine. > > Go watch Borden’s attempt at rescuing Danton again. He was nearly in tears screaming out Danton’s name. This was not a man motivated by winning. He did not want to see his old friend drown to death. I believe he was motivated by his humanity in this scene. Well they were both motivated by winning. But Danton was also motivated by revenge for the accidental death of his wife. Note also the parallelisms. To perform their perfect tricks, Borden had to constantly protect and care for his twin while Danton had to repeatedly destroy his. > [@middleman](#): > > Was that the 100th show and he knew Borden would bite? Did I miss something? > > Ok. That’s more than one question. But, you get my point. How did Danton know when to not appear and was it related to the number 100? Your know how when you make a copy of a copy it’s not quite as sharp as the original? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/52 "2010-05-05T22:08:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well they were both motivated by winning. Of course Borden was motivated by winning. I meant that his rescue of Danton wasn’t motivated by winning, for reasons I described. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/53 "2010-05-05T22:13:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Your know how when you make a copy of a copy it’s not quite as sharp as the original? Unlike Multiplicity (nice reference, btw 🙂 ), Danton’s trick relies on each version of himself being absolutely identical to the original. So the questions about which version does what, etc, are really irrelevant – they’re all the same…but one dies right away, and the one that doesn’t has no memory of drowning, because he didn’t drown. No generation of Danton has ever experienced death, by definition. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/54 "2010-05-05T22:14:53Z")
No one cares about the man who goes into the box. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/55 "2010-05-05T22:20:04Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > No. He doesn’t know if a duplicate is created far away or if the original is transported and a duplicate created in its place. He literally doesn’t know whether he’s going to be the one drowning or bowing at the end of the trick. He will be both. The only one that will survive is the one who hasn’t died. The Danton that’s shot by the surviving Borden had never known death (until then). Both magicians have the same problem: which one’s which? Ultimately they’re both both. Regarding my earlier post, I’d forgotten Danton wanted to frame Borden. And yes, Danton can’t even be trusted not to kill himself. Still, what Danton thought was the turn wasn’t really the turn. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/56 "2010-05-05T22:33:22Z")
By the way, can someone remind me _how_ Danton framed Borden? What was the evidence that Borden was responsible. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/57 "2010-05-05T22:37:18Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > By the way, can someone remind me _how_ Danton framed Borden? What was the evidence that Borden was responsible. IIRC, Cutter’s eyewitness testimony that Borden was the only one capable of locking Danton in the tank. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/58 "2010-05-05T22:58:55Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > He will be both. The only one that will survive is the one who hasn’t died. The Danton that’s shot by the surviving Borden had never known death (until then). This “he will be both” stuff is silly nonsense. Either the original is transported and a duplicate created in his place or the original stays put and a duplicate is created a distance away. His agonizing is because, of course, each and every time he climbs into the machine he doesn’t know if he’s about to die or if he’s going to be transported and every time he does so he must face the fear of his own death. But he does so anyway… … because of course, the best tricks are all about sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/59 "2010-05-05T23:21:47Z")
How are the two Dantons different? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340/60 "2010-05-05T23:25:20Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > This “he will be both” stuff is silly nonsense. Either the original is transported and a duplicate created in his place or the original stays put and a duplicate is created a distance away. His agonizing is because, of course, each and every time he climbs into the machine he doesn’t know if he’s about to die or if he’s going to be transported and every time he does so he must face the fear of his own death. But he does so anyway… > > … because of course, the best tricks are all about sacrifice. But he _will_ be both. It’s an inescapable fact. The man who is standing in the machine, with his hand on the switch, is going to end up drowning in a tank full of water. He will also end up standing on a balcony receiving a standing ovation. But up until the point where the switch is thrown, the man on the balcony and the man in the tank are the same person. There’s no probability involved. He doesn’t have a 50% chance of surviving the trick. He has a 100% chance of surviving the trick. The man on the balcony always remembers getting up in the morning, going to the theater, prepping for the show, getting on stage, and throwing the switch that activates the machine. At the same time, he also has a 100% chance of dying during the trick, because the man in the tank _also_ will remember (however briefly) getting up in the morning, going to the theater, prepping for the show, getting on stage, and throwing the switch that activates the machine. Because until the switch is thrown, it’s all the same person. And once the switch is thrown, the person who was standing there with his hand on the switch will exist in two places: on the balcony, and in the tank. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-film-the-prestige-major-jumbo-spoilers/538340.md?page=4)