# A Question About the Pentagram **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 6, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585 "2022-03-06T22:11:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/1 "2022-03-06T22:11:30Z")
I am Facebook friends with a well-know neopagan witch from Australia. And a humorous post I just saw by her brought up a question that I have had for some time now. In the humorous post (it was meant as a joke, as I said 🙂 ) she says, ‘Sanitize the house? I thought you said “Satanize” the house!’ Whatever. But in the post she has a picture of a pentagram, in a circle, with a candle at each point. There is also an inverted cross in the center. Anyway, we all know what an inverted cross represents. But when does a pentagram become ‘evil’? Specifically what does it mean when there is a candle at each point? In case you don’t know, Wiccans (as they call themselves) argue pentagrams are white magic symbols. Some further claim only when the pentagram is inverted, does it become evil. But I have seen pentagrams with candles at the five points (mostly in movies, FWIW). And I have always wondered what that means. In one movie, I saw some time back, they were doing a voodoo ritual with the above-mentioned symbol. Some woman was dancing all around the symbol on the floor (don’t ask me how she didn’t get burnt 😉 ). But of course you can’t trust anything you see in movies. Which is why I submit the question here, which is much more reliable 😉 🙂 . ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/2 "2022-03-06T22:38:04Z")
I think that the original connection was just with the occult in general, and it only became associated with Satan due to the occult in general becoming associated with Satan. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/3 "2022-03-06T22:44:17Z")
I’ve read (I can’t remember where but it seemed a credible source) that in certain times and places, the pentagram was actually a Christian symbol signifying the five wounds of Christ I agree with **Chronos**. One suit of the Tarot is generally either coins or pentacles. It seems to be a very modern invention that an inverted pentacle is evil. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/4 "2022-03-07T00:54:04Z")
First and foremost, it sounds like there is some confusion between Satanism (Christianity), Wicca (neo-pagan), and Voodoo. Voodoo has symbols called “vèvè”, which do not resemble pentagrams. Now the “Key of Solomon” does mention various “pentacles” (some of which appear to be decorated with pentagrams, among a plethora of other magical symbols) and candlesticks and blood and things like that, which brings us to Jewish and Christian magicians. In any case, it is a well-known symbol which can represent whatever you happen to have five of (five elements, five senses, or whatever). If you read something like _Faust_, it can ward off evil spirits. I am not really familiar with branches of neo-paganism, but by the time you get into modern occultism such geometric figures were already well-known as occult/magical symbols, so plenty of pentagrams in Crowley, for instance; some of the words to that ritual refer to a “flaming” pentagram (eg [The Vibratory Formula and its Use in Daily Ritual Work - Samuel Scarborough](http://www.jwmt.org/v1n5/vibratoryform.html)), which may be the origin of your Hollywood pentagram with candles. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/5 "2022-03-07T02:04:17Z")
Even a man who is pure of heart, and says his prayers by night, may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms, and the autumn moon is bright. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/6 "2022-03-07T02:16:14Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > First and foremost, it sounds like there is some confusion between Satanism (Christianity), Wicca (neo-pagan), and Voodoo. > > Voodoo has symbols called “vèvè”, which do not resemble pentagrams. Yeah, I forgot to address that. Voodoun is a syncretist religion- various African faiths mixed with Catholocism. I’ve seen various Voudoun symbols with crosses. I haven’t seen any with pentacles/prentagrams. While we’re on the subject, the idea of a doll you stick pins in etc is actually from European folklore. They were called poppets. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/7 "2022-03-07T02:21:25Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I’ve read (I can’t remember where but it seemed a credible source) that in certain times and places, the pentagram was actually a Christian symbol signifying the five wounds of Christ That’s one of several things it represents in _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_ (c. 1375-1400), along with the five senses, five fingers, five joys of Mary, and Gawain’s five virtues (generosity, fellowship, purity, courtesy, and piety / pity [the same word is used for both concepts in Middle English]). If the poet saw it as an occult symbol, it’s not particularly evident in the poem, although the King Solomon association is there. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/8 "2022-03-07T02:34:34Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Anyway, we all know what an inverted cross represents. Yeah, it represents [the Pope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Saint_Peter). Actually, I’m not sure what YOU think it means. > [@Jim\_B](#): > > Wiccans … claim only when the pentagram is inverted, does it become evil. I think the idea is that an inverted pentagram becomes the face of the devil. The two riangles pointing upward are his horns, the one pointing downward is his beard, and the other two are his ears or maybe sideburns. [![](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1yxMvky_LXt-JXcrdiNJTg_nBJWbtD1ts4g&usqp=CAU) ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1yxMvky_LXt-JXcrdiNJTg_nBJWbtD1ts4g&usqp=CAU) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/9 "2022-03-07T02:39:11Z")
Interestingly, the Seal of Solomon on the flag of Morocco is five-pointed, while the one on the flag of Israel (Star of David) has six points. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I think the idea is that an inverted pentagram becomes the face of the devil. The two riangles pointing upward are his horns, the one pointing downward is his beard, and the other two are his ears or maybe sideburns. Do Wiccans generally even believe in the existence of Satan? Can you find a reference where they explain something about the orientation of a pentagram? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/10 "2022-03-07T02:44:53Z")
I feel, though not a Wiccan, I can answer that. In general, they believe neither in the Abramic G-d nor the Devil. If you look at the witchy crowd, you can find Lavey Satanists (who are just Ayn Rand fans with a lot of props), demonolators, the Temple Of Set etc. Those groups aren’t Wccan. Wiccans aren’t Jews, Muslims or Christians. So they don’t believe in, let alone worship, the Devil. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/11 "2022-03-07T07:32:54Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > But when does a pentagram become ‘evil’? I believe the pentagram is associated with witches, and witches are people who worship not-christ, (and shall not be suffered to live, Exodus 22:18), and are therefore evil. > [@Jim\_B](#): > > Specifically what does it mean when there is a candle at each point? I have always seen the candles as a metaphor for powering the circuit of the pentagram. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/12 "2022-03-07T11:10:03Z")
I think the pentagram gained a lot of popularity with metal bands of the eighties. From playing records backwards, to Iron Maiden’s Number of the Beast to Motley Crue’s Shout at the Devil. There was a lot of dabbling in the occult back in those days. And that’s not even touching on all the teen movies involving the occult. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/13 "2022-03-07T11:25:30Z")
It was less “dabbling in the the occult” than it was “stabbing a fork in the Christian establishment’s eye.” You know, rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/14 "2022-03-07T13:14:05Z")
Early Christians had a long and very successful run of turning pagan ideas and symbology satanic. Oh, your “nature god” Pan, the one who likes to party, with the horns and the cloven hooves? That’s actually… (dun dun dun) _ **…SATAN!** _ ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/15 "2022-03-08T01:39:36Z")
To be fair, early Christians also had a long run of turning pagan ideas and symbology Christian. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/16 "2022-03-08T06:44:13Z")
Pythagoreans were into pentagrams before they were cool… 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/17 "2022-03-08T07:04:42Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Even a man who is pure of heart, and says his prayers by night, may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms, and the autumn moon is bright. Or as the Mountain Goats put it, [the pure at heart go putrid when the wolfbane blooms](https://youtu.be/4Q08st0s2Uc)… > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I think the idea is that an inverted pentagram becomes the face of the devil. The two riangles pointing upward are his horns, the one pointing downward is his beard, and the other two are his ears or maybe sideburns. Not the devil so much as [Baphomet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet) as imagined by [Éliphas Lévi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89liphas_L%C3%A9vi). Baphomet was allegedly worshipped by the Knights Templar, which supposedly explains the connection to the pentagram via a link between [Gnosticism and Pythagoreanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet#:~:text=What%20properly%20was,%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%82%20%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%B7%CF%82%20%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%BF%CF%82): > What properly was the sign of the Baffomet, “figura Baffometi”, which was depicted on the breast of the bust representing the Creator, cannot be exactly determined … I believe it to have been the Pythagorean pentagon ( _Fünfeck_ ) of health and prosperity: … It is well known how holy this figure was considered, and that the Gnostics had much in common with the Pythagoreans. All of which just gives me cause to quote the [Mountain Goats once more](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bptnhUOG2GU): _Unfurl the black velvet altar cloth_ _Draw a white chalk Baphomet_ _Mistreat your Altar Boys long enough and this is what you get_ ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/18 "2022-03-08T07:28:10Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > It was less “dabbling in the the occult” than it was “stabbing a fork in the Christian establishment’s eye.” You know, rebellion. Stabbing a fork in one’s elders’ eyes I suspect. > [@Jim\_B](#): > > But I have seen pentagrams with candles at the five points (mostly in movies, FWIW). And I have always wondered what that means. In one movie, I saw some time back, they were doing a voodoo ritual with the above-mentioned symbol. Some woman was dancing all around the symbol on the floor If it’s on the floor how do you know if it’s inverted or not? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/19 "2022-03-08T07:54:55Z")
The [Golden Ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio#/media/File:Pentagram-phi.svg) is everywhere! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-pentagram/960585/20 "2022-03-08T09:52:34Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Interestingly, the Seal of Solomon on the flag of Morocco is five-pointed, while the one on the flag of Israel (Star of David) has six points. The thing on the Israel flag is not a Seal of Solomon, it’s a Magen David or Shield of David. There is a relationship there, but they aren’t the same thing. > [@DPRK](#): > > Do Wiccans generally even believe in the existence of Satan? As a general rule, no.