# A question about the rules of baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643 "2009-04-19T18:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/21 "2009-04-21T05:39:01Z")
OK, what if the first baseman “drops” a popped up bunt, throws to the second baseman covering first for the force, and he gets the runner from first in a rundown, beans him in the back of the helmet, knocking him ass over teakettle for long enough for the shortstop to recover the ball and tag the runner out? Answer: NATS WIN! Sorry for the tangent, but what a weird play. I was skimming over the rules and I couldn’t see any provision for what happens when a thrown (as opposed to batted) ball unintentionally hits a runner, which I found surprising. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/22 "2009-04-21T05:49:00Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > OK, what if the first baseman “drops” a popped up bunt, throws to the second baseman covering first for the force, and he gets the runner from first in a rundown, beans him in the back of the helmet, knocking him ass over teakettle for long enough for the shortstop to recover the ball and tag the runner out? > > Answer: NATS WIN! > > Sorry for the tangent, but what a weird play. I was skimming over the rules and I couldn’t see any provision for what happens when a thrown (as opposed to batted) ball unintentionally hits a runner, which I found surprising. > > –Cliffy Seems I have seen it happen when a runner failed to duck on a double play. IIRC (no cite), the runner has the right to the basepath and if he is there and takes it in the face, it is a live ball, if he is out of the basepath in the up’s judgment the play is dead and the batter would be safe at first (can’t assume a double play). I recall John Lowenstein taking one for the team in 1980 for the Orioles. It was a long time before he was carted off on a stretcher. I was working as a beer vendor at that game, and was jsut above the O’s dugout during the delay. As he was carried off I noticed him give a wink or some sort of signal to one of his teammates accompanying him off (Mark Belanger perhaps). The crows was hushed, the hero was down a good 5 minutes or more. As he got to within a few step of the dugout on the stretcher he suddenly sat up arms raised and the crowd went wild. It was that kind of a summer, and it went down to the last day with both the O’s and the Brewers tied for first and playing each other, each with 102 wins. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/23 "2009-04-21T14:13:06Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > OK, but still not buying it completely. > > Say runner rounds second, throw comes in to second, runner slides in safely, 2b catches ball. runner slides past the base towards first, coming off the base, whilst doing so 2b holds onto the ball with foot on bag. > > By definition of a force and “returning to first”, he would be out. > > I’d maintain 2b needs to tag the runner, and the runner still has opportunity to scramble back safely without being tagged. I think the umpire can easily make the judgement call as to whether the runner is indeed ‘returning to first’, or just oversliding into second (particularly as he’d be oversliding towards right field, 90 degrees away from first base). Under the rules, umpires can make much more difficult judgement calls. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/24 "2009-04-21T15:25:35Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > I think the umpire can easily make the judgement call as to whether the runner is indeed ‘returning to first’, or just oversliding into second (particularly as he’d be oversliding towards right field, 90 degrees away from first base). Under the rules, umpires can make much more difficult judgement calls. Sure, but I was quoted a rule which it was claimed defines any trip past 2nd a run for first. I haven’t looked up the actual rule, but I presented a possible counter example which would render the definition as less then absolute. And it is not necessary for an overslide to head towards right either. Maybe the runner did have plans to return to first, but then thought better of it. He was taking a rounded path around the base (as runners are taught to do) and then, having turned for first before actually crossing second, decides to bail. he could slide (well or awkwardly) towards first and end up in the baseline or towards the infield side of it easily. I know this is really picky, but the best thing about baseball is that these things are not contrived, they can and do happen. So the claim that when it does happen, the runner is subject to a force out rather than a tag out merely by virtue of having re-crossed second base needs to be substantiated. Of course, now that I rethink it, this assumes first base is now occupied by the batter, so the runner can not go back to first without being considered out. having given up second base, then maybe he is subject to a force at that point. But is oversliding the base really “giving it up”? If the fielder has the ball on the base and the runner overslides towards first, the runner is out, but if he overslides towards third, he must be tagged? That seems to be the claim here, am I misunderstanding it? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/25 "2009-04-21T15:47:08Z")
> [@jackelope](#): > > Suppose you’ve got runners on second and third, and two outs. The batter hits to the outfield; ball drops without being caught. The runners from second and third make it safely to home, scoring two runs. The batter rounds first and runs to second, where he is thrown out, ending the inning. > > Do those two runs count? Yes, they do. The third out was not made on a force play, therefore any preceding runs are scored. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/26 "2009-04-21T15:56:06Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Yes, they do. The third out was not made on a force play, therefore any preceding runs are scored. No, it depends on if they crossed the plate before the out was made. Otherwise the runners would always continue home and score whenever a third out was made in such a manner. Few runners would ever be left on base 🙂 This is one of the few places in baseball where time is intrinsically part of the game I think. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/27 "2009-04-21T17:22:34Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > It was that kind of a summer, and it went down to the last day with both the O’s and the Brewers tied for first and playing each other, each with 102 wins. Not to take anything away from your story. But, you have to have your years or your number of wins or something confused. The Yankees won the east in 1980 and went on to lose to KC in the ALDS. In '79 the Orioles won the East with 102 wins, but the brewers only ended up with something in the 90s. Of course '81 was the strike year. Maybe 1982? That was a close year with the Brewers taking it by one game with 95 wins compared to the O’s 94. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/28 "2009-04-21T17:29:23Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > No, it depends on if they crossed the plate before the out was made. That was stipulated in the question. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/29 "2009-04-21T17:31:10Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > Not to take anything away from your story. But, you have to have your years or your number of wins or something confused. The Yankees won the east in 1980 and went on to lose to KC in the ALDS. > In '79 the Orioles won the East with 102 wins, but the brewers only ended up with something in the 90s. Of course '81 was the strike year. Maybe 1982? That was a close year with the Brewers taking it by one game with 95 wins compared to the O’s 94. Yea 82 then, yes, it was the year before the O’s won it all in 83. My bad. But are you sure about the number of wins? ISTR both teams had \> 100 wins. In any case, I was certainly at the final game, which was also the last game before Earl Weaver’s (first) retirement. Despite the loss (more or less a blowout) the crowd stayed and gave Earl a 45 minute standing ovation - no one left packed old Memorial Stadium. It still sends chills down my spine. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/30 "2009-04-21T17:32:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > That was stipulated in the question. In the OP? I have read it about 5 times since yesterday looking for it - can you help me find it? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/31 "2009-04-21T17:38:53Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > In the OP? I have read it about 5 times since yesterday looking for it - can you help me find it? It’s implied in the OP. He refers to the third out as “ending the inning” after the runs have scored. It’s explicit in **Clothahump** ’s post, to which you responded. Note his use of the word “preceding.” ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/32 "2009-04-21T17:39:16Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > But are you sure about the number of wins? ISTR both teams had \> 100 wins. In any case, I was certainly at the final game, which was also the last game before Earl Weaver’s (first) retirement. Despite the loss (more or less a blowout) the crowd stayed and gave Earl a 45 minute standing ovation - no one left packed old Memorial Stadium. It still sends chills down my spine. Baseball reference says that the Brewers had 95 and the Orioles 94. Plenty of wins for sure! I didn’t remember that season being so close. I do remember the Brewers being a fun team to watch. (One legged manager!) and that it was a great WS between them and the Cards. > **[1982 Major League Baseball Standings & Expanded Standings |...](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1982-standings.shtml)** > > Check out the Major League Baseball Detailed Standings including East and West Division Stats on Baseball-Reference.com ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/33 "2009-04-21T19:11:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The batter has to make it to FIRST BASE safely, and every forced runner must make it to their next base safely. I note that you are very deliberate in talking about the runners reaching their next base, rather than how they might be put out. > [@jackelope](#): > > …it suggests to me that any forced runner who does not reach base safely is deemed to have been “forced out.” > [@RickJay](#): > > There’s another reference to the force play in the rulebook (which I just found but now cannot remember the rule number of) that says that a player being forced, who is tagged BEFORE reaching the base, is forced out. I never was conscious of this issue. I have always assumed that a force play was tagging the base and not the runner, but it’s clear that the rule book doesn’t say that. But it doesn’t explicitly say tag is still a force play. I don’t remember ever seeing an out where a runner was tagged for a third out, rendering runs on the play invalid. Of course, I don’t remember what I had for lunch yesterday, either. 😃 I’m scouring the rulebook for this and can’t find a clear statement on it. The closest thing I can find is a note on scoring errors, 10.13 note 3(c): “An error shall be charged against any fielder when he caches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time to put out any runner on a force plays and fails to tag the base or the runner.” Calling this a force play, then mentioning tagging the base \*or the runner \*implies that tagging the runner would still be considered a force play. Anybody remember an MLB game where a forced runner was tagged for a third out and runs didn’t count? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/34 "2009-04-21T19:20:25Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > Baseball reference says that the Brewers had 95 and the Orioles 94. Plenty of wins for sure! I didn’t remember that season being so close. I do remember the Brewers being a fun team to watch. (One legged manager!) and that it was a great WS between them and the Cards. > > [1982 Major League Baseball Standings & Expanded Standings | Baseball-Reference.com](http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/1982-standings.shtml) Just browsing a bit at some orioles history blogs says 1980 was the year they came in second with 100 wins to the Yank’s 103. So 1982 was a bit of a down year! The O’s made a miracle comeback late in the season - IIRC 7 of th elast 10 games were against Milwaukee, and going into that final stretch the O’s were 6-7 games back. Magic number was 1 or 2. They swept the Brewers in Mil or won all but one, then in the middle series, the baseball gods shined on the Orioles with miracle comebacks and collapses by the Brewers, leaving the magic number at 1 for the final showdown. The O’s continued to win right up until the last day, and had their best pitcher ever, Jim Palmer primed for the final game. Alas, 53,000 and change hearts were broken that day as the balls flew early and often off of the Brewers bats at last into the gold bleachers of Memorial Stadium. The next year saw a new rookie shortstop, Cal somebody or other, what was his name again?, and a new manager for the first time since 1968, Joe Altobelli, and the otherwise veteran club took off right where they left off, never looking back all the way through what remains their most recent World Series victory, one that capped off an amazing run since 1966. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/35 "2009-04-21T19:30:57Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Anybody remember an MLB game where a forced runner was tagged for a third out and runs didn’t count? Anytime there is a runner on 1st and third, and a routine grounder to a middle infielder results in a simple toss to the other middle infielder for the force. Happens all the time. Similarly for bases loaded. Probably more on point, I am pretty sure I have seen a case where there was a slow roller to second and the runner on first went slow in order to possibly induce an error by distraction or to cause a rundown or other delay to allow the runner to cross, and then hope for the best, but then got tagged out anyway. I’d also think I have seen something similar with bases loaded, and a ground ball to short where the shortstop makes the riskier throw to third, pulls the 3b off the bag, and forces him to tag the arriving and sliding runner because he (3b) can’t get back to the bag in time. With the runners going on the pitch (3-2 count perhaps), a slow roller, and a speedy runner on third, he could make it home before the out is made. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/36 "2009-04-21T20:08:25Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Anybody remember an MLB game where a forced runner was tagged for a third out and runs didn’t count? When a forced runner (or the batter, before reaching first) is tagged for the third out, everyone knows that no runs count, so nobody bothers to check whether a runner crossed home plate before the tag was applied. It’s not uncommon for the batter to be tagged out at first by the first baseman after a throw pulls him off the bag. I imagine, in some such cases, a runner from third base crosses the plate before the out. It doesn’t matter. Everybody knows that it doesn’t matter, so nobody pays attention. The same scenario at other bases is more rare. Runners take leads, and in general if a throw pulls you off the bag at another base you don’t have time to recover and tag the runner. But again, if it happened, nobody would pay attention to the progress of a runner crossing home plate. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/37 "2009-04-21T20:30:46Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > When a forced runner (or the batter, before reaching first) is tagged for the third out, everyone knows that no runs count, so nobody bothers to check whether a runner crossed home plate before the tag was applied. It’s not uncommon for the batter to be tagged out at first by the first baseman after a throw pulls him off the bag. I imagine, in some such cases, a runner from third base crosses the plate before the out. It doesn’t matter. Everybody knows that it doesn’t matter, so nobody pays attention. > > The same scenario at other bases is more rare. Runners take leads, and in general if a throw pulls you off the bag at another base you don’t have time to recover and tag the runner. But again, if it happened, nobody would pay attention to the progress of a runner crossing home plate. I hope the umps are paying attention, it is what they are paid for! This wasn’t a force, but I seem to recall another weird one - runner on third, 2 outs. Batter reaches on an infield single, over runs 1st base per usual, but then absentmindly turns towards second a step or so before heading back to 1st. He is promptly tagged out, meantime runner has crossed homeplate. Pandemonium ensues with apoplectic managers on both sides as rulings are made by umps, 1st on if runner was in fact heading to second, and thus tagged out, then by whether or not the run scored before the out was made. Given the availability of video at every game, the home plate ump better darn well be paying attention every time if he likes his bang-bang job! ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/38 "2009-04-21T20:40:24Z")
I also seem to recall a game where (I used to go to a lot of games 🙂 where at least one run was taken off the board after a home run with two outs because an exuberant runner (possibly the batter) passed another runner on the basepath, thus causing the third out, before another runner ahead of him crossed the plate. I have a vague recollection of a time that happened on a walk-off homer, and as a result not all of the runs were credited (there were enough t end the game IIRC) and RBI and other statistics were adjusted accordingly. This may have happened strangely enough once in a game I was at that then went into a rain delay and by virtue of the game not being official, but the game being tied after the home run in question, and the game never resuming, stats counted but the game didn’t (isn’t there some weird rule about that, maybe updated a few years ago - if I saw it , it would have been early 80s probably)? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/39 "2009-04-21T21:32:51Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > No, it depends on if they crossed the plate before the out was made. That’s why he said _preceding_ runs. Preceding means “before.” The OP’s question was pretty clear, too, or at least I thought so. I think we’ve really, solidly, many times agreed now that the runs have to score before the tag is made. Usually. But there are plays when the runs don’t have to score before the tag, you know. If the bases are loaded and the batter is walked, and a runner - losing his mind, or something - overruns the base he is entitled to, and is tagged out, **the run scores even if the player had not yet touched the plate.** Rule 7.04(b). > [@](#): > > The next year saw a new rookie shortstop, Cal somebody or other, what was his name again?, and a new manager for the first time since 1968, No… Cal Ripken Jr. was a rookie during the 1982 season, the year the Orioles lost to the Brewers on the last day of the season. He was the Rookie of the Year, in fact. (He had played in a few games in 1981, but he was still considered a rookie in 1982.) The following year, the year Altobelli took over the team and they won the World Series, was Ripken’s second full season; he won the MVP Award that year. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/40 "2009-04-21T22:21:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s why he said _preceding_ runs. Preceding means “before.” The OP’s question was pretty clear, too, or at least I thought so. I think we’ve really, solidly, many times agreed now that the runs have to score before the tag is made. “Before” what though? Do you think that was really the clearest way to answer the question? > [@](#): > > But there are plays when the runs don’t have to score before the tag, you know. If the bases are loaded and the batter is walked, and a runner - losing his mind, or something - overruns the base he is entitled to, and is tagged out, **the run scores even if the player had not yet touched the plate.** Rule 7.04(b). Interesting - I didn’t know about the 3 base rules in 7.05: [http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official\_info/official\_rules/runner\_7.jsp](http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp) > [@](#): > > No… Cal Ripken Jr. was a rookie during the 1982 season, the year the Orioles lost to the Brewers on the last day of the season. He was the Rookie of the Year, in fact. (He had played in a few games in 1981, but he was still considered a rookie in 1982.) > > The following year, the year Altobelli took over the team and they won the World Series, was Ripken’s second full season; he won the MVP Award that year. OK, that’s it, no more reminiscing before drinking me a 6 pack of Natty Boh! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643.md?page=3)