# A question about the rules of baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643 "2009-04-19T18:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/61 "2009-04-22T19:03:08Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I drool now thinking how great it would be to make 15 % on 8 dollar beers instead of 30 dollar cases. Alas they don’t sell in the stands any more I think, and not at all past the 7th inning or some such artificial time. I don’t know what it’s like in Baltimore, but at Nats Park there are still wandering beer vendors. Not as many as back at Cleveland when I was going to games with my folks in the '80’s, but they’ll be in your section every two or three innings. Last call is the 7th Inning Stretch (I think that’s an MLB-wide rule), although if you get a vendor on his way back to the concession in the bottom of the 7th he’ll sell to you. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/62 "2009-04-23T13:27:49Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > I’ll concede the rule might not be worded the best. However, on the plays you described (a 2-out, 2-strike foul bunt & swinging strike while runner steals home) aren’t dependant on when the batter touches first base. He is out on the third strike and is not entititled to attempt to reach first base, so touching it is a non-issue. > > It’s really no different than if the batter hits a fly ball to centerfield, and two runners cross the plate before the ball is caught (before the batter-runner is actually called out.) The runs do not count, and it makes no difference whether the batter touched first base before the ball was caught. I hate to resurrect this argument, but it’s extremely different. If it’s a clean strikeout, the batter is never a batter-runner. A run scored by a steal of home before the third strike counts. Rule 4.09 clearly is meant to spply only to batter-runners, e.g. batters who have put the ball into play, to prevent runs from scoring on fly outs or force plays. The definition of “Batter-runner” in Rule 2 is quite unambiguous, and a batter awaiting a pitch is NOT a batter-runner. ---
**Author:** ![Obeseus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbce88/32.png) [@Obeseus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obeseus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/63 "2009-04-23T16:23:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If it’s a clean strikeout, the batter is never a batter-runner. A run scored by a steal of home before the third strike counts. If the batter strikes out and is the third out, the inning is over. No run can score. I don’t know where you guys are googling the rules. I’ve tried it, and all I can find are links to sites where I can purchase the rules. Show me the links, and I’ll show you the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/64 "2009-04-23T16:45:31Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > I don’t know where you guys are googling the rules. I’ve tried it, and all I can find are links to sites where I can purchase the rules. The first link from googling “mlb baseball rules”: [http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official\_info/official\_rules/objectives\_1.jsp](http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/objectives_1.jsp) ---
**Author:** ![Obeseus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbce88/32.png) [@Obeseus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obeseus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/65 "2009-04-23T17:45:29Z")
Thanks. See Post #60. > [@](#): > > 4.09 (a.) – EXCEPTION – A run does not score if the runner advances to home buse during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base You’re looking too much into this ‘batter-runner’ thing. If the batter doesn’t even become a batter-runner, the inning ends. > [@](#): > > 6.04 – A batter has legally completed his time at bat when he is put out or becomes a runner. > [@](#): > > 6.05 A BATTER IS OUT WHEN (n) – With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call, “Strike Three,” the batter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call, “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and the run counts. If what you say is true, then why wouldn’t the run count when there are two outs and the ball hits the runner in the strike zone? You would think there would be no difference, but there is, because when the batter strikes out for the third out, no run can score. No runner can advance. If you believe a runner can score on a third-out strikeout, then please explain to me why runners are not credited with stealing second when the batter strikes out to end the inning. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/66 "2009-04-23T19:15:55Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > T > If you believe a runner can score on a third-out strikeout, then please explain to me why runners are not credited with stealing second when the batter strikes out to end the inning. See post 55. Further assume that the pitch does not strike the runner at all, let alone in the strike zone, when I say the catcher handles the ball cleanly. That takes rule 6.05 that you quoted out of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Obeseus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbce88/32.png) [@Obeseus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obeseus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/67 "2009-04-23T19:30:06Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > See post 55. Further assume that the pitch does not strike the runner at all, let alone in the strike zone, when I say the catcher handles the ball cleanly. That takes rule 6.05 that you quoted out of the equation. Apparently, you believe the following is true when a runner steals home – If ball handled cleanly, run scores if runner scores before the strikeout, BUT run does not score if hit by the ball with 2 outs, BUT he does score if less than three outs. Don’t you see the inconsistency? Why would the rule specify that when hit by the ball in the strike zone with 2 outs, he doesn’t score? The reason is to correlate the result to match the end of inning (& no run) when the ball doesn’t hit the runner. For one thing, your erroneous thinking would make it necessary for the umpire to decide whether the runner scored before the strike was called. It isn’t a strike until the umpire calls it. Some umps take their sweet time making the call. What do you do if the runner slides across a split second after the catcher has the ball, but the umpire doesn’t actually call it a strike for another second? Think of how ridiculous this is. When the batter strikes out for the third out, the inning is over. There can be no advance. Please answer this question – why isn’t a runner credited with a stolen base if he reaches second base prior to a pitch in which the batter strikes out for the third out? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/68 "2009-04-23T20:04:55Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > If the batter strikes out and is the third out, the inning is over. No run can score. > > I don’t know where you guys are googling the rules. I’ve tried it, and all I can find are links to sites where I can purchase the rules. Show me the links, and I’ll show you the rules. Google “Baseball rules.” It’s the second hit. The entire rulebook is on [mlb.com](http://mlb.com). Anyway, here you go: [http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official\_info/official\_rules/foreword.jsp](http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/foreword.jsp) If the batter strikes out and is the third out of course no run can score AFTER the strikeout. The scenario presented was if the run scores on a stolen base **before the third strike occurs**. Absent a rule to the contrary, that run scores. It is exactly equivalent to the run being scored by a stolen base on the previous pitch, or while the pitcher stands in amazement on the mound without pitching at all. There is nothing in the rulebook that says otherwise and no logical reason to think otherwise. > [@](#): > > If ball handled cleanly, run scores if runner scores before the strikeout, BUT run does not score if hit by the ball with 2 outs, BUT he does score if less than three outs. > > Don’t you see the inconsistency? I don’t, maybe you do, but the fact is that **that’s what the rulebook says**. > [@](#): > > For one thing, your erroneous thinking would make it necessary for the umpire to decide whether the runner scored before the strike was called. So what? Nobody said an ump’s job was easy. ---
**Author:** ![Obeseus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbce88/32.png) [@Obeseus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obeseus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/69 "2009-04-23T20:24:34Z")
Rule 4.09 (a) (1) covers it. I’ve already conceded the rules aren’t written as well as they can be. You’re looking too much into the batter vs. batter-runner thing. Believe what you like, but you will never see a runner score a run when the batter strikes out for the third out. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/70 "2009-04-23T20:28:23Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > You’re looking too much into the batter vs. batter-runner thing. Do you believe a batter is a batter-runner before the pitch is thrown? You’re completely misreading the phrase “during a play” as well. ---
**Author:** ![Obeseus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbce88/32.png) [@Obeseus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obeseus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/71 "2009-04-23T20:33:23Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Do you believe a batter is a batter-runner before the pitch is thrown? > > You’re completely misreading the phrase “during a play” as well. No, I do not believe a batter is a batter-runner before the pitch is thrown. The batter is not a batter-runner until he puts the ball in play. However, on a steal attempt, it is continuous play. If the batter strikes out for the third out, there can be no advance by any runners regardless of who did what before the third strike. How come nobody will tell me why a runner doesn’t get a stolen base if he reaches second base before the batter strikes out for the third out? Do you think a runner from third gets a special allowance that runners going to second and third don’t get? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/72 "2009-04-23T20:37:26Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > Apparently, you believe the following is true when a runner steals home – > > If ball handled cleanly, run scores if runner scores before the strikeout, BUT run does not score if hit by the ball with 2 outs, BUT he does score if less than three outs. No I don’t believe that. For one thing, the rule about the runner being hit by the ball says it has to be in the strike zone. I avoided that issue by saying he doesn’t get hit at all. I said the catcher catches it cleanly to avoid the dropped third strike case (an example of an inconsistent rule in baseball if there ever was one, although far form the only one). In my scenario, the number of outs does not matter. The runner scores before the third out is recorded on a live ball. Look at rule 4.09A, including the comments in the rule book itself if you like, and tell me how my scenario fails the test for a legal run. And if it helps, if there is a runner on second who is also stealing, and even continues home after the third strike is recorded, that run does not count, ok? 🙂 > [@](#): > > Don’t you see the inconsistency? Why would the rule specify that when hit by the ball in the strike zone with 2 outs, he doesn’t score? Some sort of interference perhaps in not allowing the pitch, a strike no less, to cross the plate? > [@](#): > > The reason is to correlate the result to match the end of inning (& no run) when the ball doesn’t hit the runner. No, the pitcher has to be given a chance to deliver a strike when he pitches properly. He was not. In fact, maybe a case could be made that it would be a balk, in which case the run would score! That would not be fair. Just to be clear, on a strikeout, the putout does not occur when the ball crosses the plate, or even when the batter swings and misses. It also requires the catcher to catch the ball cleanly or (dropped third strike rule dance inserted here). Then and only then is the batter out. That gives a window of opportunity for the runner to get there before the out but without the batter becoming batter-runner, and that window is longer then you (or me before this thread) realized. > [@](#): > > For one thing, your erroneous thinking would make it necessary for the umpire to decide whether the runner scored before the strike was called. It isn’t a strike until the umpire calls it. Some umps take their sweet time making the call. What do you do if the runner slides across a split second after the catcher has the ball, but the umpire doesn’t actually call it a strike for another second? Think of how ridiculous this is. Atually that did occur to me yesterday. I didnt bother because it is ridiculous. I bet somewhere there is a rule about when the out or other event occurs - not when the ump says so, but when it happens, and the method of carious types of outs is defined in terms of time. Otherwise close plays don’t exist, as you don’t have to beat the ball or the tag, you merely need to beat the umps call. It would be a different game if that was the case, and every close play would be argued, generally correctly, and by 150 years or so, the rulebook would reflect the way ordinary plays are called and vice versa. > [@](#): > > When the batter strikes out for the third out, the inning is over. There can be no advance. So sayeth you, but you haven’t pointed to it, as part of my scenario, when advancing to home, according to rule 4.09 or any other rule that applies simultaneously. I would have said the same thing before this thread, in fact well into the thread until I found that rule and tried to construct a scenario to fit. So far no one has said I am wrong. and now that I think about it, it could happen if there is an attempt to intentionally walk the batter and the batter swings to strike out but the runner comes home before the pitch gets to the catcher and the catcher can’t get to the runner to tag him. > [@](#): > > Please answer this question – why isn’t a runner credited with a stolen base if he reaches second base prior to a pitch in which the batter strikes out for the third out? OK, and I didn’t know this until just now either: According to 10.07 (g) - defensive indifference. Plus, a stolen base is the domain of the official scorer, while runs scored are the domain of rule 4.09 that I cited earlier. Maybe in my scenario if the catcher doesn’t even try to stop him (and it is quite possible he won’t, maybe the score is 16-1 already, or the strikeout ends the game anyway) then the run will count and it is up to the official scorer to decide if it is a steal or not. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/73 "2009-04-23T20:39:45Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > No, I do not believe a batter is a batter-runner before the pitch is thrown. The batter is not a batter-runner until he puts the ball in play. However, on a steal attempt, it is continuous play. If the batter strikes out for the third out, there can be no advance by any runners regardless of who did what before the third strike. Okay, let’s go with this scenario. Men on 1st and 3rd, 1 out, 2 strikes. Man on first attempts to steal, is picked off. Two outs. Man on third now steals home. Run scores. Pitcher takes the rubber, throws a strike, batter out for the third out of the inning. Does the runner score? This is still all under the parameters of your example. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/74 "2009-04-23T20:40:18Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > Believe what you like, but you will never see a runner score a run when the batter strikes out for the third out. That is because of the unlikeliness of succeeding at the ploy compared with the value of attempting it,not because the rules don’t allow it. I already quoted the rule when a batter becomes a batter runner, something like when the batter becomes eligible to run towards first for some reason (not always hitting the ball). Until then, he is a batter only, and any rules that apply to batter-runners don’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/75 "2009-04-23T20:41:55Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > How come nobody will tell me why a runner doesn’t get a stolen base if he reaches second base before the batter strikes out for the third out? Do you think a runner from third gets a special allowance that runners going to second and third don’t get? Simulpost above, see 10.07g - a stolen base is the judgment call (with guidance of the official scorer). Runs are allowed by definition in 4.09 and are not the purview of the official scorer at all. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/76 "2009-04-23T20:45:16Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Until then, he is a batter only, and any rules that apply to batter-runners don’t apply. I don’t understand how this could be construed as unclear. Obeseus, could you tell us why you’re applying a batter-runner rule to a batter? Saying “you’re making too much of that” doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/77 "2009-04-23T20:46:30Z")
> [@Obeseus](#): > > No, I do not believe a batter is a batter-runner before the pitch is thrown. The batter is not a batter-runner until he puts the ball in play. That, plus: - dropped third strike - walk - hit batsman - foul ball in or out of play - catcher’s interference - etc. ? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/78 "2009-04-23T20:49:26Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I don’t understand how this could be construed as unclear. Obeseus, could you tell us why you’re applying a batter-runner rule to a batter? Saying “you’re making too much of that” doesn’t cut it. it is clear to me - I am the one who said it first 🙂 Or at least provided the example under 4.09 that we are discussing. and I consider this thread to have fought my ignorance - I would not have thought this to be the case. as someone else said upthread, i love baseball! ---
**Author:** ![Obeseus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbce88/32.png) [@Obeseus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obeseus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/79 "2009-04-23T20:53:39Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > OK, and I didn’t know this until just now either: > > According to 10.07 (g) - defensive indifference. Plus, a stolen base is the domain of the official scorer, while runs scored are the domain of rule 4.09 that I cited earlier. But it’s not defensive indifference if the catcher throws down to second. That sometimes happens. If the batter doesn’t swing, the catcher’s going to snap a throw down and not wait & hope the umpire calls it correctly. The runner had a good lead, good jump, and is on the bag before the strike call, but it doesn’t matter. In reading the rest of your post, all I can say is that I’m now aware that you have no idea about the rules at all, so I’ll not debate with you. You give a whole new meaning to fantasy baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Obeseus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbce88/32.png) [@Obeseus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obeseus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643/80 "2009-04-23T20:55:56Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Okay, let’s go with this scenario. > > Men on 1st and 3rd, 1 out, 2 strikes. > Man on first attempts to steal, is picked off. Two outs. > Man on third now steals home. Run scores. > Pitcher takes the rubber, throws a strike, batter out for the third out of the inning. > > Does the runner score? This is still all under the parameters of your example. Yes, the run scores, and, no, it isn’t under the paramaters. After the runner scored, the ball was dead. It didn’t become live again, until the pitcher set to pitch. The batter didn’t strikeout for the third out on the same play the runner crossed the plate. His subsequent pitch is a new play. Note above I said the example was continous action. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-the-rules-of-baseball/493643.md?page=5)