# A Question About Upper-Case and Lower-Case **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 6, 2009, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687 "2009-02-06T09:44:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/21 "2009-02-07T18:36:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > You’re joking about the figures, but there are upper and lower-case figures. Most typefaces have just the uppercase ones, which are the same height as capital letters. However, some typefaces come with “old style” figures, which start at _x_-height and have ascenders (6, 8) and descenders (3, 4, 5, 7, 9). In “French-style” figures, the _3_ is ascending instead of descending. Yes, but the relationship between oldstyle and modern numbers is nothing like the relationship between lowercase and uppercase characters. You don’t change oldstyle numbers to modern, depending on context. Number styles are font-dependent, not context-dependent. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/22 "2009-02-07T18:52:32Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Yes, but the relationship between oldstyle and modern numbers is nothing like the relationship between lowercase and uppercase characters. You don’t change oldstyle numbers to modern, depending on context. Number styles are font-dependent, not context-dependent. Which would also apply to Sapo’s joke about upper-case numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/23 "2009-02-08T09:38:04Z")
Since the number hijack seems to have taken hold, What is the name for those numbers with the odd ascenders and descenders? Old style, French style? Is it way too pompous to use them outside of overpriced menus? I have always liked those. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/24 "2009-02-08T15:36:38Z")
Text figures, lowercase figures, old-style figures, ranging figures, or hanging figures. (Note that they are “figures,” not “numbers.” The numbers are what they are used to represent.) “French-style” is a particular subset in which the _3_ is ascending instead of descending. There’s nothing pompous at all about them. They’re used in many professionally typeset situations, especially books. They’re less common in scientific or technical uses, because for those it’s preferred to have numbers that line up exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/25 "2011-01-30T04:09:39Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And what about “iPod”? > [@acsenray](#): > > My personal preference is to capitalize these kinds of words when they start a sentence – IPod, EBay, etc. – just like any other word that starts with a lower-case letter. I can tell you that the local English-language newspapers will start the sentences with lowercase, such as: “iPod sales hit the roof last month” or “eBay has announced …” ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/26 "2011-01-30T04:39:13Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > What do you mean numerals don’t have upper case? See, this is the lower case 1, and this is the upper case !. Same for the other numbers: > > 2 @ > 3 # > 4 $ > 5 % > 6 ^ > 7 & > 8 \* > 9 ( > 0 ) > > I don’t know what’s the big deal. > Now seriously, we had a similar situation not long ago about members whose username begins with a lower case letter (such as ascenray, pseudotriton and panache on this thread). Apparently some want their names always in lower case, even at the beginning of a sentence. > > ETA: _sigh_ how did I miss the post above mine? My username is in lowercase simply so that it’s easier for me to type when I log in. I don’t care if anyone makes it uppercase if it is used in a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/27 "2011-01-30T14:12:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yes, precisely. As has been said, this is a matter of style, and there is no correct. What is acceptable for a paper in a science class may not be proper in a popular magazine article. Actually, I would try to avoid this kind of problem by rewriting the sentence even if it was going into a scientific journal. Standards are looser for things like class papers. The general rule of academic writing is to ask (the instructor, journal editor, etc.). I once took a class where the professor insisted on specific margins, and you could lose points for having too wide or too narrow margins. There’s nothing ungrammatical about having margins other than one inch. Citation rules, such as HOW and WHEN you must cite, may differ depending on the context of your work (for what class, journal, etc.). None is inherently better to such an extent that you can just say that it’s the superior rule and can be applied everywhere. If this were an English composition course, you probably would have been asked to change “mRNA samples were taken at intervals of 10 minutes.” to “The researcher took samples of mRNA at intervals of 10 minutes.”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/28 "2011-01-30T16:55:50Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I can tell you that the local English-language newspapers will start the sentences with lowercase, such as: “iPod sales hit the roof last month” or “eBay has announced …” Interesting. The Associated Press Style Guide does call for capitalization of eBay and iPod when at a beginning of a sentence. For those examples, I don’t think it’s that big a deal, but MRNA does look goofy. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/29 "2011-01-30T18:21:16Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Since the number hijack seems to have taken hold, What is the name for those numbers with the odd ascenders and descenders? Old style, French style? Is it way too pompous to use them outside of overpriced menus? I have always liked those. [Link to wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_figures) on old style numbers, just because I was curious. The page on [Hoefler Text](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoefler_Text) has the numbers in the image, without the distracting lines in the first link. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/30 "2011-01-31T02:51:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Interesting. The Associated Press Style Guide does call for capitalization of eBay and iPod when at a beginning of a sentence. For those examples, I don’t think it’s that big a deal, but MRNA does look goofy. Those are seen mainly in the Business section, but Thailand does have a telecommunications satellite called iPSTAR, written exactly like that. It makes it into the regular news a lot, especially since the company that owns it is owned by the prime minister who was booted out in the last military coup, in 2006. Actual example sentence from last August: “iPSTAR currently provides broadband satellite services in 12 countries in the region.” So there you have a word that is lowercase for the first letter, then all uppercase for the rest, even at the beginning of a sentence. Exactly the reverse of normal. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/31 "2011-01-31T03:11:41Z")
Is it [this company](http://www.ipstar.com/)? It appears they’re IPSTAR on their own website. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/32 "2011-01-31T03:22:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Is it [this company](http://www.ipstar.com/)? It appears they’re IPSTAR on their own website. Not that it really matters–capitalization rules for these sorts of things vary based on in-house style guides. So, while AP may say “EBay” to start a sentence, plenty of journalistic publications will make their own modifications of the AP Style Manual (or follow another style manual). “Teenager,” for example, was a common change to AP style followed by most newsrooms in the US. Up until fairly recently, AP insisted on hyphenating it “teen-ager.” I don’t know when the change happened, but it was still “teen-ager” in the late 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/33 "2011-01-31T03:29:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Is it [this company](http://www.ipstar.com/)? It appears they’re IPSTAR on their own website. Yeah, Thaicom. Looks like they’re “IPSTAR” in some places on the website and “ipstar” on others. But the convention in the local press is “iPSTAR.” In both of the English-language dailies, the _Bangkok Post_ and _The Nation_. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/34 "2011-01-31T06:25:02Z")
The Chicago Manual of Style specifically says that the words are already capitalized, and thus should not be capitalized again. I remember being taught that on this very board. Wikipedia’s current policy is to use normal capitalization rules, unless a majority of reliable sources use the modified version. They definitely cannot use a capitalization that doesn’t exist, as that would be original research. ---
**Author:** ![kim\_jung\_il](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/54ee81/32.png) [@kim\_jung\_il](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kim_jung_il)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/35 "2011-01-31T08:24:04Z")
Being a Biology major, I’d have to say that your lecturer won’t mind which way you use it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/36 "2011-01-31T17:35:26Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The Chicago Manual of Style specifically says that the words are already capitalized, and thus should not be capitalized again. I remember being taught that on this very board. Yes. That change came with (so far as I know) the 16th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style, which came out in August 2010. The rule is in 8.153: “Brand names that begin with a lowercase letter followed by a capital letter now retain the lowercase letter even at the beginning of a sentence or a heading.” I don’t have the full CMS in front of me, so somebody should check. How does “mRNA” fit into this (not being a brand name, and all.) I suspect they probably didn’t consider cases such as that, but probably would be in favor of keeping it lowercase, now that words like eBay and iPhone can be lowercase to start a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687/37 "2011-01-31T20:30:09Z")
The way I see it, if a word is such that it would override the default rules and have capitals in the middle of a sentence, then it also overrides the default rules at the beginning of a sentence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-upper-case-and-lower-case/484687.md?page=1)