# A question for all you intelligent art types! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 28, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397 "2004-04-28T00:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Yesterdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@Yesterdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yesterdog)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/1 "2004-04-28T00:51:47Z")
Ok, so American artists and intellectuals were persistently interested in “control” throughout the twentieth century. Some were inclined towards a societal orientation (asking, for instance, how much control human beings have over their lives), while others were inclined towards the personal (striving, for example, to achieve control over objects or other people). How have American artists and intellectuals pursued the issue of control? Where would the fit on a spectrum that ranges from “always in control” (total mastery) at one end, to “never in control” (utter subservience or chaos) on the other? What have they seen as the agents/mechansims/circumstances of either mastery or oppression? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/2 "2004-04-28T03:11:08Z")
Take-home exam? Or paper? ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/3 "2004-04-28T03:26:55Z")
Sounds more like a Cliffs Notes malfunction to me. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/4 "2004-04-28T03:43:53Z")
Actually I have an answer. Just add footnotes and you’re set: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore et dolore magna aliquyam erat, sed diam voluptua. At vero eos et accusam et justo duo dolores et ea rebum. Stet clita kasd gubergren, no sea takimata sanctus est Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore et dolore magna aliquyam erat, sed diam voluptua. At vero eos et accusam et justo duo dolores et ea rebum. Stet clita kasd gubergren, no sea takimata sanctus est Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore et dolore magna aliquyam erat, sed diam voluptua. At vero eos et accusam et justo duo dolores et ea rebum. Stet clita kasd gubergren, no sea takimata sanctus est Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis. At vero eos et accusam et justo duo dolores et ea rebum. Stet clita kasd gubergren, no sea takimata sanctus est Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore et dolore magna aliquyam erat, sed diam voluptua. At vero eos et accusam et justo duo dolores et ea rebum. Stet clita kasd gubergren, no sea takimata sanctus est Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, At accusam aliquyam diam diam dolore dolores duo eirmod eos erat, et nonumy sed tempor et et invidunt justo labore Stet clita ea et gubergren, kasd magna no rebum. sanctus sea sed takimata ut vero voluptua. est Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore et dolore magna aliquyam erat. Consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore et dolore magna aliquyam erat, sed diam voluptua. At vero eos et accusam et justo duo dolores et ea rebum. Stet clita kasd gubergren, no sea takimata ---
**Author:** ![Yesterdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@Yesterdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yesterdog)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/5 "2004-04-28T11:28:12Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Take-home exam? Or paper? More like personal curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Yesterdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@Yesterdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yesterdog)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/6 "2004-04-28T11:35:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Lorem ipsum …everybody’s got jokes these days… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/7 "2004-04-28T13:13:49Z")
[The Moderator Speaketh] The underwhelming response to your question, **Ryan** , seems to be the assumption that this is a homework assignment. Your phrasing is indeed somewhat professorial. The SDMB members tend to react negatively to folks who ask for homework help. You’re still reasonably new here, so you might not have caught that. To the rest: No more anti-homework comments, please, **Ryan** has said this is simple curiosity, not homework. So, hop in. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/8 "2004-04-28T14:00:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Cecil’s Demi God** _ > To the rest: No more anti-homework comments, please, Ryan has said this is simple curiosity, not homework. So, hop in. [Prof Hat tilted back] I do not believe this is curiosity. It doesn’t smell of simple interestedness. As you said 🙂 I’ve seen questions like this posed by collegues on mid-terms, essay Q’s mainly.[/prof hat tilted back] To that end. Your question is a good one. Though I do not intend to give an answer I will say this: _American Artists and Intellectuals_ - is a tad broad don’t you think. Maybe including examples of American thinkers would be a better way to word this. Say Martin Luther King, or Rockafeller, or Jean-Michel Basquiat… ---
**Author:** ![Agentb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Agentb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agentb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/9 "2004-04-28T14:29:49Z")
- > [@Ryan K](#): > > Ok, so American artists and intellectuals were persistently interested in “control” throughout the twentieth century. Some were inclined towards a societal orientation (asking, for instance, how much control human beings have over their lives), while others were inclined towards the personal (striving, for example, to achieve control over objects or other people). How have American artists and intellectuals pursued the issue of control? Where would the fit on a spectrum that ranges from “always in control” (total mastery) at one end, to “never in control” (utter subservience or chaos) on the other? What have they seen as the agents/mechansims/circumstances of either mastery or oppression? - What caused my eyebrow to raise upon reading this was the variance of tone between the title and body of his post. Anyhoo, to address your question, I charge that American artists and intellectuals have not pursued the issue of control (by any means) over the past 20th Century. There, all done. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/10 "2004-04-28T14:48:32Z")
I’d examine the films _Falling Down_, _Training Day_, _Requiem for a Dream_ and _Secretary_ for a nice spectrum of characters who control and who are controlled. Books like _Trainspotting_, _Absalom, Absalom!_, and _The French Lieutenant’s Woman_ are all fair game as well. You might digress and discuss how the filmmaker (as _auteur_) has control, whereas the documentary filmmaker (examine the Altamont documentary) doesn’t know what’s going to happen, and has to craft a story afterwards. Then I’d look at “emo,” “grunge,” and “gangsta rap” – especially how those art forms tend to assume that one does or does not have control over one’s life; perhaps digress into how each of those groups created a subculture where words that were otherwise inappropriate become badges of honor (“I’m a loser, baby” / “I’m an old-school n\*gga” / etc.). All of the above artforms basically give the artist total control, so you can really shake things up next: examine how painting gives the artist the ability to create anything he can imagine, within the limits of his skill (diversion or footnote about Jackson Pollock, who worked with chaotic forms); how photography removes the control over conditions like lighting, and challenges the artist to “capture” vision from the uncontrollable world (diversion for James Incandenza, who used optics to remove some of that uncertainty, and inject it where HE wanted uncertainty); and how _digital_ photography has returned that control to the artist. Maybe include a brief discussion of artists who were known to create while they were inebriated or otherwise un-sober; the loss of control that chemicals give the body, and whether that’s freedom or captivity (Elvis, Kurt Cobain, and J. Incandenza again). So, I see two conflicts: how does the artist approach the **theme of control** , and how much does the artist have **control of the medium**? ---
**Author:** ![Yesterdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@Yesterdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yesterdog)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/11 "2004-04-28T15:26:00Z")
> [@Agentb](#): > > What caused my eyebrow to raise upon reading this was the variance of tone between the title and body of his post. Anyhoo, to address your question, I charge that American artists and intellectuals have not pursued the issue of control (by any means) over the past 20th Century. > > There, all done. I dissagree completely. Take Edward Weston for example, and his _Peppers_, 1927 or _Pepper No. 30_, 1930. Now, peppers are peppers. Good for pizza, salads, and salsa. Weston got ahold of them and took the pepper away from the pepper. Using his photographic genius (undisputed by Dopers I hope), he added an element of control to an average vegatable. He does this to nudes as well. Westons _Daybooks, I. Mexico and II. California_ offer some insight into his control methods. The was just a minute sampling of the photographic spectrum. Next is the literary spectrum. _Native Son_ by Richard Wright is a personal favorite that springs to mind. The main charecter, Bigger Thomas is an individual with free will, yet he is obviously controlled. How did Richard Wright implement that control? The simplest answer is the manipuation of racism in 1930’s Chicago and poverty. To counter this, look at Joseph Heller’s _Catch-22_. The book is completely out of control…as least that’s what it seems. Maybe an underline of control exists somewhere. Maybe the story taking place on the island of Pianosa was all the control a humorously whacky story like that needed. I argue that the book was a cold war novel, and that really balanced the delicate level of control with something that could so easily turn out of control really fast. Georgia O’Keeffe’s _Skull_, 1930 also implements an element of control. She says it’s the “all american painted” (with the addendum of the red stripes). I say it’s a vagina. It’s a dead cow skull regardless. She controls it through her painting, and also controls what the viewer sees…me, vagina. (insert Big Lebowski joke here) **Jurph** brings up a point with Jackson Pollock. His book _New Approaches_ is quite instersting, though some parts are beefed up (probly by his marketing genius wife). It really helps on non-modern art appreciator or viewer really absorb what modern art tries to do. My personal favorite Pollock is _Lavender Mist: Number I, 1950_, which is on display at the National Gallery in DC. The talent remains with artists over time, but the talent of modern art is a different talent. Pollock may not be able to draw a person anatomically accurate and realistic like Charles Peale, but his paintings have a certain blance in them. That’s his control. Not anybody can slap paint down and call it art. Period. Now, the Theme of Control and Controlling the medium are one in the same I think. Some of Westons pictures took hours to take. Very controlled. And with that, he also controlled his image, and that allowed him to manipulate with the theme of control. Life doesn’t present itself in different shades and hues, but Weston used tools to extract those shades and hues from life and put them on glossy paper. This is part of my take anyways…hope it clears up any conspiracy of me not being intersted :mad: But I don’t hold grudges 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/12 "2004-04-28T15:49:53Z")
**Ryan** - it may be because this is more of a debate and this Q seems to be in the wrong forum. Maybe great debates would be the wiser place to discuss this. That said… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **agentb** _ > What caused my eyebrow to raise upon reading this was the variance of tone between the title and body of his post. Anyhoo, to address your question, I charge that American artists and intellectuals have not pursued the issue of control (by any means) over the past 20th Century. > > There, all done. > _Originally posted by **ryan** _ > I dissagree completely. Take Edward Weston for example, and his Peppers, 1927 or Pepper No. 30, 1930. Now, peppers are peppers. Good for pizza, salads, and salsa. Weston got ahold of them and took the pepper away from the pepper. Using his photographic genius (undisputed by Dopers I hope), he added an element of control to an average vegatable. He does this to nudes as well. Westons Daybooks, I. Mexico and II. California offer some insight into his control methods. What exactly do you disagree with? Your tone and substance do differ to some extent. The you bring up **Weston**? Excuse me if it sounds like you are taking a class and studying this genre. > [@](#): > > This is part of my take anyways…hope it clears up any conspiracy of me not being interested It just seems a bit too philosophical in nature and seems like something I would discuss in one of my classes. This is all. You see **ryan** you will get all types of folk here. Many of us are well educated in one discipline or another and many are chock full of life skills and yes some are complete ignoramuses. I’ve been psych prof. for 8 years…you OP, reminds me of an essay Question, and regardless if it is or not **Ryan** , it is a good Question. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Agentb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Agentb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agentb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/13 "2004-04-28T16:29:38Z")
- [QUOTE=Phlosphr] **Ryan** - it may be because this is more of a debate and this Q seems to be in the wrong forum. Maybe great debates would be the wiser place to discuss this. That said… What exactly do you disagree with? Your tone and substance do differ to some extent. The you bring up **Weston**? Excuse me if it sounds like you are taking a class and studying this genre. \* Dribble, dribble, SCORE! The OP was a verbose cascade mascarading as a sincere topic, not an appropriate subject of heated dispute considering that art (and everyone knows about O’Keefe) is purely subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Yesterdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@Yesterdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yesterdog)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/14 "2004-04-28T17:07:27Z")
I am taking this topic as a course, and this was a question raised in the class…more of like a food for thought. I posted it here becuase of the “art” theme of the forum, but I knew it was going to be discussed like a debate (which is what I was hoping for). I was tring to type into the fan base if you know that I mean. I am a firm believer in two heads are better than one. While I have my own non-consice thoughts on the question(s) posed, I’m trying to stimulate my own intellectual developement. My account is new, but I’ve been reading the postings on the board since Sept, 2001. I guess now that I payed 5 dollars to do so, I’m trying to get my moneys worth. I found in the past weeks that I am getting more too, which is really cool. Maybe I should have stated that this wasn’t “my” question, but either way, one which I would like to discuss ir get insight on. **Philosphr** , to answer you’re question, **Agentb** argued that the pursuit of control didn’t exist. I countered with my own arguement. ---
**Author:** ![Agentb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Agentb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agentb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-all-you-intelligent-art-types/242397/15 "2004-04-28T17:18:56Z")
- [QUOTE=Ryan K] I am taking this topic as a course, and this was a question raised in the class…more of like a food for thought. I posted it here becuase of the “art” theme of the forum, but I knew it was going to be discussed like a debate (which is what I was hoping for). I was tring to type into the fan base if you know that I mean. I am a firm believer in two heads are better than one. While I have my own non-consice thoughts on the question(s) posed, I’m trying to stimulate my own intellectual developement. My account is new, but I’ve been reading the postings on the board since Sept, 2001. I guess now that I payed 5 dollars to do so, I’m trying to get my moneys worth. I found in the past weeks that I am getting more too, which is really cool.\* Bravo, Ryan