# A Question For Fellow "Liberals" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814 "2004-12-08T21:04:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/41 "2004-12-09T09:04:11Z")
> [@glee](#): > > “A violent resurgence of Taliban and al-Qaida fighters in Afghanistan is putting U.S. soldiers and international aid workers at increasing risk, especially in the southern part of the country, the back yard and birthplace of the Taliban.” > [@ITR champion](#): > > Better resurging in one corner of the country than controlling the entire thing, eh? Oh indeed. Of course sorting out Afghanistan, where Osama Bin Laden was hiding, should have taken precedence over invading Iraq, where Osama wasn’t (just like the WMD’s). But the reason I posted the link was this: > [@ITR champion](#): > > Got rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan. So my comment was aimed at that poster, who was ignorant of the true facts. (Perhaps a member of the Bush Administration, then 😃 ) That’s funny - you’ve both got the same name! ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/42 "2004-12-09T09:17:46Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > Unemployment was around 4.5% when he entered office, never above 7% during his four years in office, so… If you believe those figures you probably also respond to offers from west Africa to share millions of dollars with you in exchange for your bank account number. The unemployment figures only count people receiving unemployment insurance payments. When tmed out of the unemployment rolls you just aren’t counted any more, no matter how long you remain unemployed. I speak from bitter experience. I would bet that 10% is conservative (heh). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/43 "2004-12-09T09:38:36Z")
Lessee… He offered no-strings-attached (AFAIK) aid to the Iranians following that devastating earthquake. He personally went back to rescue one of his SS agents from an administrative snafu in Chile (?) recently. And he’s made it a helluva lot easier for me to start paying off my student loans from here in the UK by keeping the dollar weak (come on, 2 to 1!). There are a few areas such as space travel that he’s paid lip service to, but I’m waiting to see what comes of it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/44 "2004-12-09T10:26:15Z")
No. Hell no. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/45 "2004-12-09T10:34:14Z")
I’ve noticed that, as the administration has gotten increasingly loopy, we’ve heard less and less from that little faction to which the National Post was giving disproportionate attention in 2002, that said Canada should merge with the States. I guess they’re embarrassed. I have appreciated the respite. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/46 "2004-12-09T11:01:09Z")
The Afghan war was, in my opinion, fully justified. If only he had stopped there. Accepting John Ashcroft’s resignation. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/47 "2004-12-09T11:11:49Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > The unemployment figures only count people receiving unemployment insurance payments… That isn’t true (speaking of the BLS numbers), but don’t let mere fact stop you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/48 "2004-12-09T12:36:24Z")
Um… he refused to be done in by a pretzel. This shows courage and moral… oh who the fuck am I kidding, the man is a walking unmitigated disaster. I’ve been thinking about this question since it was first moved to the pit, and I honestly can’t come up with a single damn thing. I believe that the country is pretty much worse off in every imaginable way and will only get worse in the next four years. Joy. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/49 "2004-12-09T13:32:19Z")
Well, I approved of the war in Afghanistan, and ousting Saddam Hussein was a good thing as well. That’s not to say they were handled well. Kind of a mess really, but his heart was in the right place even if his head was up his arse. I also approve of the new space initiative. And since I’ve used the word “approve” so many times… I’m Harborwolf, and I approve this message. ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/50 "2004-12-09T13:34:25Z")
Choking on that pretzel was a move guaranteed to pander to my base. However, he did not “stay the course”. So, no. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/51 "2004-12-09T13:41:19Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > That isn’t true (speaking of the BLS numbers), but don’t let mere fact stop you. You are correct, **Brutus**. The BLS unemployment figures do include people who are not receiving unemployment benefits. However, they do not accurately reflect the percentage of the population who is able and willing to work, but cannot find a job. These are called “discouraged workers”, the long term unemployed who have given up looking for work. > [@](#): > > Discouraged workers – Persons not in the labor force who want and are available for a job and who have looked for work sometime in the past 12 months (or since the end of their last job if they held one within the past 12 months), but who are not currently looking because they believe there are no jobs available or there are none for which they would qualify. > > [http://www.bls.gov/bls/glossary.htm#D](http://www.bls.gov/bls/glossary.htm#D) [According to the BLS](http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_faq.htm#Ques5): > [@](#): > > Who is counted as unemployed? > > Persons are classified as unemployed if they do not have a job, have actively looked for work in the prior 4 weeks, and are currently available for work. > > Who is not in the labor force? > > All members of the civilian noninstitutional population are eligible for inclusion in the labor force, and those 16 and over who have a job or are actively looking for one are so classified. All others–those who have no job and are not looking for one–are counted as “not in the labor force.” So if you have not looked for work in the last four weeks, you are not counted as unemployed. There are [by some estimates](http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-jobslede022403,0,95332.story), a million discouraged workers out there who are not counted in the unemployment statistics. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/52 "2004-12-09T14:22:18Z")
Honestly, there is one thing he did that I totally approve of. And only one thing: He extended unemployment benefits by 13 weeks. That act, which is completely liberal in its nature, saved my ass from the fire. I benefitted directly from that, and as a result, I am now a productive member of the work force, rather than being a drain on society. ---
**Author:** ![goofyfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b77776/32.png) [@goofyfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goofyfish)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/53 "2004-12-09T15:01:46Z")
Well… What I was looking for here was some means of finding a common ground between the two camps on this issue. It this thread demonstrates that it is grossly obvious it probably won’t happen. If two sides cannot communicate to each other they will only draw farther apart. Thanks to all who posted. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/54 "2004-12-09T15:10:23Z")
I’m quite liberal as compared to Bush and his cronies, but it’s hard to deny the value of increased funding to fight AIDS in Africa. And the handling of the Ukranian crisis has been surprisingly good. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/55 "2004-12-09T15:25:26Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > That isn’t true (speaking of the BLS numbers), but don’t let mere fact stop you. That is apparently [true](http://www.bls.gov/dolfaq/bls_ques23.htm), although I’m not sure what they mean by _specific effort_. > [@Department of Labor Statistics](#): > > Unemployed persons: All persons who had no employment during the reference week, were available for work, except for temporary illness, and had made specific efforts to find employment some time during the 4 week-period ending with the reference week. Persons who were waiting to be recalled to a job from which they had been laid off need not have been looking for work to be classified as unemployed. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/56 "2004-12-09T15:28:41Z")
errr… Bureau of Labor Statistics… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/57 "2004-12-09T15:37:58Z")
> [@goofyfish](#): > > If two sides cannot communicate to each other they will only draw farther > apart. Thanks to all who posted. The two ‘sides’ can certainly communicate quite well with each other, with sporadic instances of lalala-I-can’t-hear-you-ing, to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/58 "2004-12-09T16:48:36Z")
1. The “do-not-call” list was implemented on W’s watch. Thank you, Mr. President. 2. He went to Iraq on Thanksgiving Day 2003. Maybe it was all political, maybe it wasn’t; it was still the right thing to do. 3. He’s for measuring results, at least on paper, of various programs (like workforce retraining for unemployed people). That’s often code for “we’ll produce numbers to make it look like it doesn’t work so we can cut it,” but given Bush’ liking for spending while not taxing, it seems like he’s not pre-supposing what will be found. So I approve of measuring results. ---
**Author:** ![maniondl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cdc98d/32.png) [@maniondl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maniondl)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/59 "2004-12-09T17:46:58Z")
Although I could answer sarcastically and list the many things I’ve disliked, I’ll assume the OP was sincere and give an honest answer. I can think of three things I approve of. - I’ll second (or whatever) the Do Not Call list - a good idea whose time had come - Invading Afghanistan - Not as well handled as I would have liked, but I still approve of the overall idea. Don’t ask me about Iraq, though. - I’m sure I’m going to lose my liberal credentials for this one, but I’m glad he didn’t push for a renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban. It was a silly “let’s look like we’re doing something” law that banned weapons for looking scary. Otherwise, it’s been a very long four years. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814/60 "2004-12-09T18:22:36Z")
Here’s one nobody had mentioned yet: I thought his surprise visit to the troops the Thanksgiving before last was a nice morale-boosting move. I am completely oblivious to the fact that he did that in the year prior to the election, and did not repeat the visit after having secured re-election. Nope, didn’t even notice that . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-fellow-liberals/278814.md?page=4)