# A question for logical Mormons in the know. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2001, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497 "2001-01-17T12:32:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/61 "2001-01-19T16:12:54Z")
Brian, no Mormon will ever abandon their “religion” because of facts, no matter HOW many. Their minds are closed. ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_Bunnyhurt)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/62 "2001-01-19T16:19:45Z")
Thanks Vanilla, I agree. I was trying to tell that to one of the previous posters. This is a culture clash, not some bible bash. I am for the side of free-thinking, consider your rights and duties and options, and some want to debate the citational merits of whether of not God actually cursed the Native Americans dark for sin two thousand years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Felice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e4f/32.png) [@Felice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Felice)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/63 "2001-01-19T16:28:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Brian, no Mormon will ever abandon their “religion” because of facts, no matter HOW many. > Their minds are closed. \*\* Let’s broaden that statement a bit - “No one will ever abandon their religion because of facts, no matter HOW many.” I don’t think it’s fair to specify Mormons as being more close-minded than other religions. As ElvisL1ves said in the very first response to this thread - faith and facts cannot be used to refute each other. But even so - **vanilla** , I have to say you’re flat-out-wrong. After all, the OP sound to me very much like an open-minded Mormon who is abandoning the religion because of facts. So the thread itself discredits your rather bigoted observation. And **brian** , when you asked: > [@](#): > > But what was this about the marriage age in Utah? Who proved it to be not 14? What did I miss? What you missed was **Billdo’s** post in this thread on 1/18/01 at 5:46 PM, where he cites the bloody statutes on the marriage age in Utah. Are you actually reading this thread or just using it as sounding board to vent your own anti-LDS vitriol? ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/64 "2001-01-19T16:29:34Z")
**vanilla** wrote: > [@](#): > > Brian, no Mormon will ever abandon their “religion” because of facts, no matter HOW many. > Their minds are closed. This from a woman who throws away ALL evidence that I send to her that Mormons are Christians with the explanation that “it’s not biblical.” (Although how she knows a book is “not biblical” without ever reading it, I’ll never know.) Who’s mind is closed, the one who will keep an open mind and listen to the best arguments of both sides, or the one who tosses all evidence that doesn’t fit her world-view into the trash? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/65 "2001-01-19T16:33:38Z")
I _was_ a mormon, so I DO know about it. I am not anymore, becasue the facts showed that it was so in disagreement with the Bible, not to mention the contradicitons the “leaders” have made themselves, etc. Like I said, theres no reason to debate with folks whose minds are closed, not to mention quite defensive. ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/66 "2001-01-19T16:35:23Z")
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**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/67 "2001-01-19T16:36:56Z")
BTW, your last question can be asked about yourself. I am not going to continue this futile task here, go on your merry way.And please stop the hate-filled e mails. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/68 "2001-01-19T16:38:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you actually reading this thread or just using it as sounding board to vent your own anti-LDS vitriol? DINGDINGDING! I’ll take “vitriol” for 100, Art. **Bunnyhunt** , being open minded does _not_ entail the kind of anger and rage you demonstrate. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/69 "2001-01-19T16:46:08Z")
(I think you should have said: “No one ever immediately changes their ways based on anyone’s teachings, and some have hardened their hearts, and some teachers are false and it is good not to listen to them anyway.”) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > the facts showed that it was so in disagreement with the Bible Other than the whole marriage thing, which directly contradicts what Jesus taught (unless of course, you redefine the word which Mormons manage to do), and the implication that all the saints who kept Christ’s teachings in the Western world for 1800 years didn’t go to the best heaven since they were not Mormons (right?) – an idea I find atrocious – what else in Mormon teaching contradicts the Gospels? ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/70 "2001-01-19T16:49:38Z")
**vanilla** wrote: > [@](#): > > BTW, your last question can be asked about yourself. > I am not going to continue this futile task here, go on your merry way.And please stop the hate-filled e mails. Oh, please. I have offered MANY times to read any literature you send me about the LDS religion. You have refused to do the same with pro-LDS literature that I have sent or referred you to. Who’s mind is closed? And I haven’t sent you a hate-filled email in at least two hours. 😉 I do love you, Rose, and wish you the best. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/71 "2001-01-19T16:52:41Z")
jmullaney: eat up: http;[//www.mrm.org/](https://www.mrm.org/) Yes, they aren’t biased. They do provide the facts. Of course, if you were a Mormon, you would say that anyone against Mormonism is being misrepresentative, but just read and find out for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/72 "2001-01-19T16:56:43Z")
Excuse my semi colon it should be [http://www.mrm.org/](http://www.mrm.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Snark\_Hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snark\_Hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark_Hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/73 "2001-01-19T16:59:53Z")
Here are some pro-LDS links: [Official LDS Site](http://www.lds.org/) and a very comprehensive, informative site: [All About Mormons](http://www.mormons.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_Bunnyhurt)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/74 "2001-01-19T17:05:34Z")
Felice, I’m sorry I missed the thread of the amended marriage age in Utah from 14 to 15 in 1999. It skipped as I plug page two and I thought I read all the posts on page one. Anyway, how is it you can broaden Vanilla’s assertion that no one will open their minds due to religion, then claim it to be flat wrong. Sounds like a not so artful contradiction. Are you a Mormon too? Only fair to disclose if you are. Felice and Andros, Let me break it down for you both. I care about Mormons enough to inform them of what I know (I know thousands of them personally, their friendship to me dependent to my beliefs about Mormonism), I don’t need you to condescendingly and contradictorily lecture me on kindness by accusing me of vitriol. Secondly, it’s a free country, and not only am I exercising my right of free speech responsibly, by trying to broaden freedom in a political sense. According to these beliefs, I avoid personal attacks and personal anectdotes, which you apparently have no problem with. I repectfully deny yours and others request to censor me or anybody else who feels they have something against personality cults, especially if they were forced raised in one. The Mormons here can defend themselves all they want, which they do not really attempt to do, but choose to discredit me and not the facts, even though they have a billion dollar PR machine to help them. The last thing they need in their boxed in existence is a pretentious self-righteous do-gooder thinking they are protecting them from the big bad wolf (not necessarily anyone here). I was a Mormon, obviously, but that is beside the point. I did not start this thread, I merely got sucked into defending my position. If it is not ass-kissy enough for you both, I’m sorry, we’re different and we disagree. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/75 "2001-01-19T17:16:10Z")
Thanks vanilla. If I can pick up that book I’ll have to skim a few chapters. **Brian** – with all due sympathy to your position, you might consider toning down the rhetoric a few notches. It is permitted to “witness” to strongly held beliefs here, and I understand your frustrations. Try to count to ten and take a few deep breaths and reread what you typed before posting anything that might be construed as an overly personal attack. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/76 "2001-01-19T17:18:08Z")
No Bunny, you’ve missed the point. In attacking both the faith and the practitioners thereof, you **are** indulging in personal attacks. Your personal abhorrence of the religion has blinded you to the courtesy and fairness upon which you claim to pride yourself. And when you’re called on it, you accuse others of being apologists or having some secret pro-LDS agenda. I don’t know for sure, but I believe that **Felice** is about as LDS as I am, which is to say not in the slightest (based on her past posts). You’re welcom to believe whatever you want. if you feel that the Mormons are the moral equivalent of the Bavarian Illuminati, go for it. But you’ll not successfully forward those beliefs through insult. And I find it amusing that the Mormons responding to this thread have by and large been calm, reasonable, and polite in the face of your unabashed hatred. As I said near the beginning of the thread, I do not understand how one religion’s interpretation of God can be any sillier than any other–_except through the eyes of a competing religion._ I realize you believe yourself to be absolutely correct in your views–that’s a common human failing. But really, is it worth all the anger you display? ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_Bunnyhurt)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/77 "2001-01-19T17:31:52Z")
Andros, You are confusing a passionate style for anger. Where did I indulge in a personal attack (upon one person)? To be as objective as I can possibly be, even imagining I do not exist, aren’t you perhaps letting an imagined superiority of style (yours) to get the better of you here? There are rules to debates and campaigns, but they are based on validity, not third-party referree tastes. Thanks anyway. I don’t know how else to respond. Mormons can’t readily claim victimology by keeping 68,000 full time missionaries out in the field telling everyone else they are wrong. You can’t cry foul if you aren’t the one supposedly offended, can you? If I am wrong, let me know. But I think you do protest too much for no reason. I gave my reasons. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/78 "2001-01-19T17:50:25Z")
Once again, **Brian** , I am not defending Mormonism. But I reserve the right to cry “bias” when I see it. I’m not being a “referee,” I’m simply commenting that in my opinion, you are far to angry to be objective. As long as you realize that, we’re on the same page. > [@](#): > > Where did I indulge in a personal attack (upon one person)? As I just said, when you insult a group, you insult the individuals within that group. A sampling: > [@](#): > > personality cults . . . their boxed in existence . . . they have been brainwashed . . . You are a perfect example of what Mormonism is all about. Fake rationality to the core . . . There is no reference for it in normal people . . . you are in serious weird denial . . . You are completely insane . . . intelligent people are leaving your cult in droves . . . nobody with an IQ over 100 is joining anymore . . . So Mormons in general, and the ones here in particular are: cult-followers boxed-in brainwashed embracing “false rationality” not normal in wierd denial insane stupid, with an IQ of less than 100 points Now, I know you believe all that to be correct. To be honest, often I do too. But it’s your presentation I take exception to. You tell me if you’ve attacked anyone. You live in Southern Utah, **Brian** –you **know** that all the anger in the world at the Monolith will not change anyone’s mind. If you truly want to help people leave the Church (instead of bragging about how you made it out or raging against it), I guarantee you’ll get more flies with honey than vinegar. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/79 "2001-01-19T17:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dogsbody \* > \*\*[hijack] > If you want out of the LDS Church for good, you could always try my father’s method. He moved to California and married my mother, and six months later got a couple of visitors at the door. He greeted them, they asked why he hadn’t attended the local Temple yet (or whatever’s in Oakland), and his reply was, “I married my wife in a Presbyterian ceremony, and have been attending a Presbyterian church with her for the past six months.” > > Three days later he received a “Letter of Excommunication,” and he hasn’t heard from the church since. Except for the occasional door-to-door visitor, who gets told that he’s been excommunicated from the church, and who always leave in a hurry after that. Dunno why. > [/hijack] \*\* [response to hijack] Thanks, but I don’t hear much from them anymore. (Just my Dad, who seems to have given up on the idea of me returning.) The Mormons and their misguided religion don’t mean enough to me to even bother to find them, tell them I’m a Pagan and wait for my letter. Consider me excommunicated, if you wish, I could give a damn. But, hey, thanks for the tip! If the missionaries come knocking on my door, I’ll invite them in to participate in some Wiccan ritual. That ought to send 'em packin! [/response to hijack] ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2001, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497/80 "2001-01-19T17:53:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > As I said near the beginning of the thread, I do not understand how one religion’s interpretation of God can be any sillier than any other–_except through the eyes of a competing religion._ Well, as long as you include atheists as having equally silly notions about God(s), this is a reasonable statement – but somewhat meaningless. > [@](#): > > I realize you believe yourself to be absolutely correct in your views–that’s a common human failing. If it is a failing to believe anything is true, this entire message board is meaningless as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-logical-mormons-in-the-know/50497.md?page=5)