So long as you give to a person, any person, and that person knows the contribution came from you, then that would apparently be “seen of man” if I understand your stance correctly.
But, are you not reading more into the event than there really is? An individual who contributes his hard-earned nickel might just perhaps like to know the coin is actually being spent on something good. Thus, the idea of contributing to a known entity; i.e., Red Cross, Save the Whales, one’s church, etc. The fact that a person has contributed to a known organization does not necessarily mean that the intent of the donation was to be seen of man. It could very well be that the intent to have the donation used wisely caused the donor to contribute to a known entity, which he or she trusts to do the wise thing. This has nothing to do with the organization actually doing that, only with the donor’s intent.
PLG, who based their argument on faith? Hint: no such thing as an argument based on faith. You are pretending to be objective again. I agree, the debate about evolution and creation is just as absurd as this thread. Guess which side I’m on? You can’t prove evolution to the satifaction of a creationist, but that’s my point, you can’t demand proof if you’re a creationist without contradicting yourself. Do Mormons believe in evolution?
I know the answer to that last question, by the way, and guess what, there is no answer. What good is a prophet if he can’t tell you something before the fact? Did you know that Ezra Taft Benson might have caused most of the cancer in the United States just by INSISTING that tons of untested (since banned) herbicides and pesticides be used, against gov’t scientists warnings, in the 1950’s when he was head of the Dept. of Agriculture? Who needs a prophet when stupidity and self-righteousness will suffice?
Scroll up some, or even speak to some ward clerks or bishops.
Newsflash for BB! Other churches preach the idea of tithing and a “full tithing” by definition is 10%. Yet, it’s still voluntary for the donor to pony up the geld.
Let’s see…agreeing to follow the rules of a group to join a group identified by those rules…yeah, you got a point here ([mister subliminal]not quite likely[/mister subliminal]).
{snip}
So, the condition of employment was to follow the rules? You realize that coffee consumption is out for such employment also, right?
Or maybe he got caught drinking a cup of joe?
I don’t suppose you have any proof of that happening, now do you? After all, the only deductions an employer can make from an employee’s paychecks are the statutory ones (FICA, State Income Tax, MEDICARE, Federal Income Tax, etc.)and the voluntary ones (employee’s signed authorizations for such deductions).
This is good stuff Monty, I appreciate it for its wit, seriously.
The money was not deducted from those people’s checks, it was cashed out through some standard procedure and extorted from them, with explanation. I assume everyone felt good about it, I mean, considering they have the awareness of little child and it was free tax money given by the citizens in good faith, all one had to do is threaten them with hellfire and they’d have gotten 20% easy. I didn’t call them thieves you’ll notice. You want proof? No thanks, he was almost fired last year for sneaking a cigarette at work (outside). This wouldn’t go over well at all.
Oh my God, you are totally missing the point of my whole post, yet totally repeating everything I said.
This is not a debate, because like I said before, by definition one can not debate faith.
So stop trying. You are looking like a fool. Why? Because you insist on arguing about something that neither side can prove.
Why don’t you understand that? Nobody can prove any one religion is the True and Right religion. Nobody can prove that any one religion is not the True and Right religion. All you can do is repeat your opinions ad naseum, and in the process, make it seem that you don’t know how to have a logical discussion, as well as not even knowing what the word debate means.
I think that certain religions are beyond nutty, and I often wonder why so many people practice them. However, I don’t try to convince them that they are practicing the wrong religion, because like I said before, faith is highly personal thing. Oft times, logic has no place in the matter of faith.
PLG, I agree, nobody can prove religion. But, can one assert that one religion is the only TRUE religion?
I think your’re finally getting the point. Look into the mirror and ask yourself: Have I been brainwashed by Mormons? I would think you sincere if you said they had no right to make any such claims based on self-interest.
Brian, don’t make me laugh. You want me, and other Mormons to come to this thread and try to justify to you why we believe in the LDS Church so you can, based on your reliefs, ridicule us. Real big of you, my friend.
Guess what? I don’t owe you, or anybody an explanation for the choices I made. And furthermore, I don’t need your’s, or anyone else’s, permission.
FTR, I believe the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the True Church for me. And that is the closest thing to an explanation I will offer anybody on the subject.
I could care less what you or other irrational Mormons do or say. I only care about the one’s who are wondering what the big deal is all about and why they find they can’t easily leave it without creating a ton of personal problems. Obviously, as you implied, there is no big deal. They would beg to differ. Good night.
But I would like to point this out: in the case of Mormonism, there are certain supposed “facts” that have supposedly occured relatively recently. The “faith”, which certainly cannot be argued, is founded upon these tangible supposed “facts”. If it turns out that all the “facts” upon which the Mormon faith are founded, or even most, are demonstrably false, that certainly does call into question the wisdom of having faith in such a religion.
I mean, it would kinda boil down to saying: “My religion is founded on a series of outrageous lies and fantasies, but I believe it anyway.” And one would certainly have every right to do so. But it appears, to may casual perusal, that Brian is arguing the “factitude” of much of Mormon lore.
I’m referring here to the practical and tangible claims made by Joseph Smith about the plates, etc.
I hesitate to jump into this wasps nest, but here’s my two cents worth in the Mormon debate.
I, like Felice, would appreciate some evidence on this one. I don’t have any facts to quote one way or the other, but from my personal experience, while I have met a few mixed up Mormons, I haven’t found Mormons on average to be in much more of a psychological mess than people I have met in many other walks of life – whether members of other churchs, people of varying degrees of belief or non-belief, and even quite a few scientists and others who reject religion in general.
[Briefly, my pedigree so you know where I’m coming from: I grew up Lutheran, was a member of the LDS church for about 3 years, and got my master’s degree at BYU. I am no longer a practicing (or believing) member of the LDS or any other church, however. Having lived in Germany, Canada and four different US states, including Utah, I’ve had a chance to meet people in different places and cultures and get some perspective both inside and outside of the LDS environment, I think. I hope.]
I agree that a belief which tends to discourage free thinking is not conducive to personal development or mental health. However, LDS belief (or other religious belief) does not completely negate free thinking and some of my most thoughtful and searching philosophical discussions have been with some of my LDS friends. I don’t entirely understand how they manage to achieve a balance between faith, acceptance of dogma and using their own minds, but many do it admirably. I lived and conversed with these people day in and day out for several years, and still keep in touch with several Mormon friends (guess what? it’s possible to be an ex-Mormon and still be accepted by Mormons) and they seem as happy and productive as anyone else I’ve known outside of that rarified BYU world. It wasn’t all a mask of happiness either. We had the usual share of misery and doubt of normal human beings during those years. But yet I saw my Mormon friends grow and learn and find happiness, even while believing and acting on those beliefs.
I do understand the pressure on Mormons, particularly the young people. It can be intense and I felt it myself while trying to be a good, obedient member. I can see how some might be damaged or crippled by it, but I’m not convinced that it’s MORE damaging than plenty of other dogmatic beliefs, religious or otherwise. Personally, I felt more nurtured/supported and encouraged to express myself in that environment than I ever did as a Lutheran – which can be just as rigid as Mormonism, in its own way. I’m sure there are plenty of other denominations and practices that are equally oppressive. And as irrational and corny as it may seem, faith and hope can go a long way towards mental and physical health – even if you (and I, for that matter) happen to think that the foundation behind that faith is bogus.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe in or agree with the teachings of Mormonism or the majority of other Christian denominations. And I definitely never want to talk to another missionary in my life. But I’m reluctant to rail against them as if they were utterly evil and destructive. That’s just not true.
Yikes! This whole thing I just wrote sounds like a testimonial. Ugh. Well, I’ll just post it anyway since I took the time to write it.
pepper: I have provided cites and facts and support, and I am not raving and ranting. My you Mormons are so defensive.
Yes, believe it by faith all you want, but claiming Mormonism is Christianity is wrong. Its doctrine is 180 degrees opposed to the Bible on so many counts, it is a different religion.
The only reason they claim it is so the public will think, Oh okay Mormonism is just another denomination of Christianity. It isn’t. It claims and states that it is the Only church, mainstream Christianity had lots of truth missing.
It cannot prove this however, anyone can make up “lost gospels”.
Do Mormons believe that God is three separate beings?
That we existed before earth?
God was not always God, He had to work his way up?
Eve’s sinw as a good and necessary thing?
You can pray people out of Hell?
Do not forget Galatians 1:8,9 “But if anyone, even an angel comes preaching “another gospel” let that one be accursed.”
That is Mormonism, another gospel. It isn’t the same as Christianity.
I hear Jehovah Witnesses are much worse than Mormons, and according to NPR this Morning, 8:36 AM, Orthodox Jews “experience the same ostrasization process as Mormons.” They, as you put it, provide a smothering environment and nurture people towards their own ends. You were in it for 3 years. That is not the average. You say you have Mormon friends, perhaps you never took the time to challenge them, but appeased them. They don’t usually speak or have contact with anyone who challenges them as an exmormon. I stand by my assertion. Read the exit stories at http://www.exmormon.org and read the nasty letters from Mormons decrying the site-owner to hell, and write each one and tell them they are wrong. In other words, seek your own experience here. You cannot deny that Mormons do more missionary than any other religion. This is due not to the facts they possess, nor to the social benefits they believe it provides (no proof of any social benefit or their historical claims). In other words, it is due to dogma and pressure they receive from the cult to do so.
Stoidela since I’ve never met Joseph Smith, and I’ve never seen the Gold Plates with my own eyes, than I do have to accept that he was a true prophet from God, and that the Gold Plates do exist. That’s a leap of faith I am willing to take. I don’t think that’s anymore unbelievable than The Bible. As a matter of fact, I have an odd relationship with the Bible. On the one hand, my faith in it keeps me in the Church. On the other hand, if anything ever drove me away, it would be that Book.
Vanilla, I am not defensive. Just confused. Nobody has explained to me why they are so concerned about the Church and its members. Nobody is forcing anybody else to join. Nobody is forcing anybody else to believe in its tenents. Many just want to be free to worship who, what, and where they want. So why is it your concern? Didn’t Jesus say something about taking care of the plank in your eye before removing the dust in another’s? (Paraphrasing) Hmmmm, or maybe something about how we should judge not, lest we be judge? Of course, there is always the good ole stand by “He without sin may cast the first stone.”
Here’s the deal. I don’t care what you say. It really doesn’t bother me at all. But I do care about your motives behind it. When anybody goes on a rampage against any religion, I’m curious about the motives. I mean, honestly, do you think anybody cares about a complete stranger’s point of view about a personal belief structure?
What I’m beginning to think this thread is, is a bit of mental masturbation for certain participants. It certainly has no other point that I can think of. You aren’t going to change anybody’s mind, and Brian even sorta admits the futility of his actions. So, why do you continue?
Peppi, I am just stating the facts here. Mormonism claims Christianity is incomplete; that Mormonism IS “restored” christianity. Mormonism disagrees so much with Chrsitianity and the Bible. I’m just pointing that out.
Call yourself a Mormon. Its a religion.
But it isn’t Christianity.
'Nilla sounding just like the old ARG220? Who’d’a thunk it…
Vanilla, I don’t think this is good for you or Snark. Perhaps laying off your gripe about your one-time religion until there’s a little more water under the bridge would be a good thing. It’s not like there are any dire consequences if you don’t argue about LDS right this instance, and I suspect you may regret your current vehemence later. Think about it, please.
I am only admitting the futility of my actions based on the fact that Mormonism is a trap once people get to involved. In other words, the mind is disabled by various cult control techniques depending on the intellect, and no matter how much information is provided to the contrary, a devout Mormon assimiliated as an infant will usually never admit that they or it is wrong/false (two separate problems). As Vivulus pointed out, and I will agree, converts have an easier time of leaving, because they don’t have families and lifelong associations that squeeze them in. Most people on the exmormon BBoard at http://www.exmormon.org are converts. A person born into it, generally, has resigned their fate and usually sees it as futile to flee, the often get disinherited, as per Hinckley’s quote (posted by me) earlier in the thread (“You may disown them…” etc.). My intent is therefore, obviously, to warn people off, and to help those who agonize over going on a mission at their own expense to decide against, and to warn those considering going to the temple and selling their soul and ideals forever to decide against.
I have had Mormon relatives tell me it would be better if I was dead. I have had Mormon “friends” tell me that I can’t leave, because I took a vow. Both are “factual” as per Mormonism, and in the old days apostates were often murdered. Read the many histories of Utah for more info.
By the way, the ET Benson-as-nation’s-worst-poisoner cite can be read in Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring, pp, 165-67.
The fact that I am an exmormon, not selling a replacement, allows me to make these claims in good faith. It is a duty to the truth and to fellow humans, which I have a hankering for as per my intellectual orientation and sentiments. Nevermind my thousands of negative experiences, or the tens of thousands I know of, I wouldn’t be claiming as much if I had positive ones, and there would be no motive for me to do so if leaving Mormonism was so casual and easy. Obviously, as resistance to this thread proves, it is next to impossible for most people to leave the longer they have been in it. But, maybe if I can persuade you and others by appealing to your sense of honesty and integrity not to brainwash your children into it, or let the Mormon church brainwash them into it, then my efforts will not have been in vain.
I was a fifth/sixth-gen Mobot (aka Morgbot) on both sides, my ancestors knew JS and BY. My great-g-g-g grandfather supposedly “handled” the plates wrapped in a cloth while JS was attempting to hide them on his large farm in Massachusetts from “the mobs” (as was his scam to involve others with money). He never joined, but his daughter married a Mormon. Not everyone was fooled. Not everyone is a coward to an organization made of straw-men. Not everyone shrinks from their inherited duty to make things right again.
vanilla: You continue to claim that Mormonism conflicts with the Bible, yet you have ignored my requests for you to clarify other verses in the Bible which appear to contradict your interpretation of it.
BunnyHurt: I’m calling your fraud this time. Maybe it’s just a mistake with your source reference, but maybe not. Your “quote” of President Hinckly doesn’t exist, or at least not as you cited it. I hadn’t even noticed it before, but your reference (on page 1) is for “Oct. 15, 2000.” Yet the general conference took place on Oct 7-8, 2000. Furthermore, when I search the archives at http://www.lds.org I cannot find the quote you give. And finally, the context of the quote doesn’t appear to be encouraging people to abandon/disown their children but rather that no matter what a parent did, he or she will be unable to forget their children. I’m sure the full quote would elaborate more.
Brian, your quotes have been sloppy when they exist, usually from anti-mormon sources (people who make their living off of attacking the LDS church, like the tanners), and your data have been incorrect (e.g. the marriage age in Utah). You have trashed logic by asserting that the statistics gathered in good scientific form are less valid than your personal assertions. You have attacked people on this forum while stating that you do not make personal attacks (“You are a perfect example of what Mormonism is all about. Fake rationality to the core”). You have made sweeping assertions about all Mormons that have been shown false by counterexample and yet you still are unable to admit error. You have even gone all the way to use ALL CAPS, which in my book is the end of any pretense of rational discussion.
The only reason I have even bothered to answer you was to expose the recycled lies and misinformation that you have been reciting. I think you’ve impeached yourself better than I ever could.
Once again, after all of this, I ask the moderators to close the thread or move it to the Pit. It appears that the original poster has disappeared, and we’re now left with rants and counters to rants.
Gaudere, Vanilla’s current attitude towards Mormonism is, I would guess, at least partly my fault. I tried to force Mormonism on her when we were going to get married, something I greatly regret. I do want to marry a Mormon or no one, but I shouldn’t have forced the issue, and I definitely shouldn’t have proposed after only knowing her in person 2 weeks. I jumped the gun and tried to make her into the mate I wanted her to be. Her current vehemence against Mormonism is probably the result of this attempted forcing. I could be wrong, but nobody likes to have a religion shoved down their throat. I know that if anyone tried to force me to be Pentecostal, for instance, I’d probably be resentful of it and rebel against it much more than if I had investigated it of my own free will.
Like you, the Mormon church censors after the fact. Here is the Trib article, you are correct, it was the 8th.
Mormon Elders Warn of Pitfalls … 10/08/2000
The Salt Lake Tribune
Date: 10/08/2000 Edition: Final Section: Nation/World Page: A1
Keywords: Mormon Church Conference; UT; Mormon Church General Authorities; Social Issues; Technology; Parenting
Subject: Religion and Belief Matter: Churches (organizations)
Mormon Elders Warn of Pitfalls of Technology
Hinckley Urges Dads to Raise Their Sons Well
BY BOB MIMS THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
Citing the pervasive evil of Internet pornography and increasing immorality, LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley warned Mormon fathers Saturday night that their own examples could ultimately win or lose the battle for their sons’ souls.
Addressing the Priesthood Session of the 170th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Hinckley said he knew some Mormon youths had “slipped and are slipping into the foggy swamp of immorality, drugs, pornography and failure.”…
{Edited for copyright concerns. Please do not post the full text or significant portions of copyrighted articles; post a link and/or minor excerpts only. Thank you. --Gaudere}
