A question for logical Mormons in the know.

[emarkp]

We believe that a guy claimed to be the Son of God, was killed, and came back to life three days later.

jmullaney:
Er, so this gives you license to believe anything?

Um, no. That kind of ignores the rest of my post. The point is that if the OP doesn’t believe in the divinity of Christ, and the reality of His atonement, then there’s little point in my going into all the refutations again.

At least there is no way to prove that is false. Jewish Indians on the other hand… hmmm, were there any Mormons on the OJ jury? That would explain a lot.

A claim that there is no relation between ancient Jews and American Indians is inpossible to prove. It seems then necessary to have a great deal of faith in current scientific principle to believe that such has been proven.

Furthermore, the Book of Mormon makes no claim that the only source for Native Americans is ancient Israel. There appear to have been other sources for the ancient American population as well (which perhaps dominated in numbers) which would dilute any genetic markers. Also, I have read studies that do show relations between the two groups.

As for changes in the Book of Mormon, the majority were grammatical and were done in Joseph Smith’s lifetime. Some were clarifications, and some of the last changes were passages that were fixed in the mid 1800’s, but then the fixes were missing in later editions. The history of the book was that the original (written on plates which had the appearance of gold) is no longer in the hands of mortals, so we have only the English text to draw from.

[Grim_Beaker]

GB, I only rejected one statistic, and here is why. If the Mormon church sends their teens out to have kids in other states, to save face for both the teen and the church, this then places a negative statistic on another state and lowers the statistic in Utah, on average. That is a double-bonus for the statistic in question.

Not necessarily. You have no idea how this statistic was calculated. Only by studying the methodology and questions used to gather the information can one factually state whether or not the scenario you mentioned would have an impact on the statistics. Furthermore even if it did occur there is no way to know (unless the methodology accounted for the situation you mention, which I highly doubt) how great of an impact it had. You are assuming that your personal experience with the subject carries broadly across all cases of teenage pregnancy in Utah. There is simply no way for you to know whether that is true or not.

As for going bankrupt in Utah, I know a few dozen (and this is beside the point because it was published last week in the SLTrib) and again, this is not just paying the Mormon church their spiritual extortion of 10%, but includes paying for Mormon missions, making the figure closer to 15%,

You knew a few dozen people who went bankrupt specifically because of tithing? Did the people who went bankrupt state that specifically? Or is it possible that they went bankrupt because of poor financial decisions or unforeseen circumstances (such as the mudslide which demolished a neighborhood in Riverdale, Utah last year)?

Anyway, tithing is not just the problem, but the trashy lottery mentality that comes from paying tithing based on hints that one will soon profit by it.

I have never expected monetary reward for paying tithing and I defy you to find anywhere in official LDS literature where it explicitly states that paying tithing will bring a quick profit. If certain people exaggerate or relay anecdotes of having received aid in a time of need who is to blame here? The entire church or individuals?

Yes, I am saying that Mormons are materialistic to the point that they identify righteousness with overt displays of wealth.

Which of the 3 most accurately matches your statement:

1. All Mormons identify righteousness with overt displays of wealth.

2. The LDS church officially promotes the materialism among its members.

3. You know some Mormons who are materialistic.

If you are saying the first then this is a very broad generalization that is impossible for you to support, especially since I know many personally that are not. If you are claiming the second then please indicate where the church espouses this view. If you are stating the 3rd option is the one you meant then I don’t really see how it has much meaning. There are materialistic people of all denominations!

As for anger and bitterness, this is a fallacy (ad hominem). I don’t need anger, I have the facts and the experience to go with it. I was raised Mormon and I watched it destroy my family and many others to the point now where we/they don’t even talk civily to each other. I consider it a moral duty to raise these issues in the face of insitutional lies. What is your excuse for defending it? Moral duty or seeking unearned rewards? Please do tell. Most people stoop to claim that their lives were a mess before they learned the Mormon “truth” of their existence, but that only lessens their objective claim for obvious reasons.

Are you saying that Mormons who feel positive emotions about their church are less objective while you, a ex-Mormon, who feels negative emotions about the church are more objective?

Grim_Beaker

[andros]

and it is widely assumed to be a good influence, even if it is the only influence. Your post affirms that to me. If one were to dare raise a concern, it is called into question immediately.

Yeah. I support religion. Uh-huh. Suuuure.

Nice try.

I subscribe to the City Weekly and have yet to read one article critical of Mormon beliefs or origins, (not even one, not ever).

:Shrug: Whatever. Clearly they’ve changed in the three years since I let my subscription expire. :rolleyes:

Now, admittedly, they don’t share your blind hatred. Nor do I. But you just keep jerking that knee, son.

[jmullaney]

*Originally posted by emarkp *
The point is that if the OP doesn’t believe in the divinity of Christ, and the reality of His atonement, then there’s little point in my going into all the refutations again.

You seem to be on top of your game – although I am made to understand Mormons have a vastly different economia than NT Christians, and I find the idea that your Christ has anything to do with the Christ of the New Testement laughable. But I won’t argue with you – believe in whomever you want.

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

Andros,

If you can knee jerkingly accuse me of knee jerks, and blindly with prejudice accuse me of blind hatred, I can accuse you being passively religious. By the way, only a passively religious person thinks anger is necessarily bad or not worth having by definition, so you tipped your hand. Nice try.

Grim B.,

One can reject anything for whatever reason, you obviously are using teen pregnancies in Utah to bolster some advocacy position, when I am saying that LDS Social Services runs a highly funded adoption program tied to many states. How many other states have centrally funded adoption programs that use other states in this way? None that I’m aware. You are perhaps confusing my rejection of this statistic with my rejection of Mormonism, to show it is irrational. It’s a common fallacious technique.

Let me break it down: I assume that Mormon teens get pregnant and abortion is out of the question. I assume that Mormons don’t want these kids hanging around their own church and embarrassing both parties. Do you agree? I assume they find places for them to go outside of their city area. If in Utah, most cities are bunched up around SLC. So, sending these kids to Texas or Hawaii suddenly makes alot of sense from their mentality. So, I reject any statistic regarding Utah teen pregnancy rates from the fact that LDS Services runs a well-funded adoption agency. You can’t even get an honest statistic from the LDS church and you know it, my case exactly. And my point is made even more valid by even the presence of LDS adoption services. Do you deny it exists?

Yes, Mormons are materialistic, again an opinion. Did I say it was not my interpretation or opinion but a scientific disease fact. Nonsense. You are going overboard again to try to show me irrational. Defending a cult with statistical zeal will never work, the burden of proof is on you to prove Mormonism is you chose to defend its truthfulness, since the assertion is yours. I am counter-asserting claims made by Mormons. By the way, just so everyone knows. Mormons claim to be the only true church in the world. It is either all true or all false, as per PP Pratt’s famous claim. We know some of it is false.

Also, claims that Mormonism is true but the members are not, as it is commonly phrased, is another fallacy. There is no such thing as a church without members, unless you can prove a god. To say that Mormonism is true but that Mormons are fallible is to round-about assert the existence of God in Mormonism. I reject this claim because key Mormon claims are proven to be false. Mormonism is also socially proven to be lacking.

And for your edification, I can and will assert that Mormons are materialistic, because this is an attribute or trait that one may have in big or small degrees. I obviously implied that ALL were affected to some degree by virtue of the cult vapidly emphasizing personal rewards and self-interest (obviously some will resist it, but not totally avoid it). To say that they either are or aren’t per person is a major absurdity, as if it is a microbe or something. Thanks for this wonderful debate. No hard feelings.

[Billdo]

Under current Utah law (as amended in 1999), the minimum age for marriage is 15. However, the marriage of anyone under 18 requires parental consent, and the marriage of a 15-year-old requires the consent of the parents and the approval of the juvenile court after making specific findings. Prior law permitted the marriage of persons 14 and over.

Specifically, Utah Code Section 30-1-2 provides:

 30-1-2. Marriages prohibited and void.
 The following marriages are prohibited and declared void:
 (1) when there is a husband or wife living, from whom the person marrying has not been divorced;
 (2) when the male or female is under 18 years of age unless consent is obtained as provided in Section 30-1-9;
 (3) when the male or female is under 14 years of age or, beginning May 3, 1999, when the male or female is under 16 years of age at the time the parties attempt to enter into the marriage; however, exceptions may be made for a person 15 years of age, under conditions set in accordance with Section 30-1-9;
 (4) between a divorced person and any person other than the one from whom the divorce was secured until the divorce

decree becomes absolute, and, if an appeal is taken, until after the affirmance of the decree; and
(5) between persons of the same sex.

Utah Code Section 30-1-9 provides:

 30-1-9. Marriage by minors -- Consent of parent or guardian -- Juvenile court authorization.
 (1) For purposes of this section, "minor" means a male or female under 18 years of age.
 (2) (a) If at the time of applying for a license the applicant is a minor, and not before married, a license may not be issued without the signed consent of the minor's father, mother, or guardian given in person to the clerk; however:
 (i) if the parents of the minor are divorced, consent shall be given by the parent having legal custody of the minor as evidenced by an oath of affirmation to the clerk;
 (ii) if the parents of the minor are divorced and have been awarded joint custody of the minor, consent shall be given by the parent having physical custody of the minor the majority of the time as evidenced by an oath of affirmation to the clerk; or
 (iii) if the minor is not in the custody of a parent, the legal guardian shall provide the consent and provide proof of guardianship by court order as well as an oath of affirmation.
 (b) If the male or female is 15 years of age, the minor and the parent or guardian of the minor shall obtain a written authorization to marry from:
 (i) a judge of the court exercising juvenile jurisdiction in the county where either party to the marriage resides; or
 (ii) a court commissioner as permitted by rule of the Judicial Council.
 (3) (a) Before issuing written authorization for a minor to marry, the judge or court commissioner shall determine:
 (i) that the minor is entering into the marriage voluntarily; and
 (ii) the marriage is in the best interests of the minor under the circumstances.
 (b) The judge or court commissioner shall require that both parties to the marriage complete premarital counseling. This requirement may be waived if premarital counseling is not reasonably available.
 (c) The judge or court commissioner may require:
 (i) that the person continue to attend school, unless excused under Section 53A-11-102; and
 (ii) any other conditions that the court deems reasonable under the circumstances.
 (4) The determination required in Subsection (3) shall be made on the record. Any inquiry conducted by the judge or

commissioner may be conducted in chambers.

[SisterCoyote]

[hijack]
If you want out of the LDS Church for good, you could always try my father’s method. He moved to California and married my mother, and six months later got a couple of visitors at the door. He greeted them, they asked why he hadn’t attended the local Temple yet (or whatever’s in Oakland), and his reply was, “I married my wife in a Presbyterian ceremony, and have been attending a Presbyterian church with her for the past six months.”

Three days later he received a “Letter of Excommunication,” and he hasn’t heard from the church since. Except for the occasional door-to-door visitor, who gets told that he’s been excommunicated from the church, and who always leave in a hurry after that. Dunno why.
[/hijack]

[jmullaney]

*Originally posted by Brian Bunnyhurt *
By the way, just so everyone knows. Mormons claim to be the only true church in the world.

Yeah, well, most every religion – at least ones that have been around for more than a few generations – has believed that what they believe is right.

I can and will assert that Mormons are materialistic, because this is an attribute or trait that one may have in big or small degrees. I obviously implied that ALL were affected to some degree by virtue of the cult vapidly emphasizing personal rewards and self-interest (obviously some will resist it, but not totally avoid it).

This vapid cult materialism – does it have a BoM scriptural basis? I mean, this is America after all – I know what you are talking about, but could it be a passing trend or is it inherent in the religion?

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

JMullaney,

I assert that Mormonism attacts and cultivates the most self-seeking part of humanity that [brace yourself] that has learned to enjoy a fruit of reward best if they know someone else can’t have it. So, to pose an extreme, people like most Mormons never seek equality (even despise it) but rather judge their station by how many people envy them and are begging below them. Sick, isn’t it. Isn’t it?

The Book of Mormon is just an excuse for a prophetship, which then defines Mormonism, it doesn’t have any doctrinal significance. In fact, the doctrine in it usually contradicts their strict prophecies. This is a Mormon contradiction specific to Mormonism. A living prophet means they don’t need scripture, but they need scripture to justify a living prophet.

[jmullaney]

*Originally posted by Brian Bunnyhurt *
The Book of Mormon is just an excuse for a prophetship, which then defines Mormonism, it doesn’t have any doctrinal significance. In fact, the doctrine in it usually contradicts their strict prophecies. This is a Mormon contradiction specific to Mormonism. A living prophet means they don’t need scripture, but they need scripture to justify a living prophet.

oooohhhh – I think I get it now. And then it just has a sort of Masonic “promotion” system, and the head guy (or council, brick, whatever) decides doctrine? How do they screen out false prophets?

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

Jmull,

They don’t screen out false prophets, they promote the most false to the very top via their nifty seniority system. The most successful follower of Mormonism gets to be the leader at a time when they are oldest and most feeble. It’s call rogue institutionalization. All Mormon “general” authorities are chosen as a clone of a set, to promote the idea that dissent is absolutely the worse sin. They are all the same, talk the same, say the same things. This warps Mormon people’s minds into thinking they are supposed to be clone boring too.

[dangermom]

Well, I don’t know why I don’t just ignore you all. Too stupid, I guess. Nonetheless, here I go.

Count me in as another devout Mormon. Why? Because, like emarkp, I have felt the Spirit tell me it’s true. Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, the prophet, all of it. I like the feelings I get by working with my fellow Mormons to build the kingdom of God, and the longer I stick with it, the better it is and the more I learn.

And now to address some of you–

Dogzilla, I remember discussing women and the priesthood plenty. It took me a while to realize that the priesthood is not a mark of superiority. At all. Not only that, but the leaders of the Church actually mean it when they say that women are men’s equal partners, and that motherhood is the most important thing they can do. They aren’t just trying to keep us down by spouting pseudo-Victorian ‘angel in the home’ nonsense meant to keep us quiet. They mean it–and they’re right. In my time in the Church, I’ve come to know lots of women who have spiritual strength and influence equal to any of the men. We aren’t second-class citizens, by any means. You might enjoy reading books like Sister Saints or the other books about the early LDS women–man, they rocked.

Tithing! I pay my tithing, gladly. And I know exactly where it goes. We had a Sunday School lesson on it once, and I’ve done my own reading. Tithing goes for the maintenance of the Church–buildings, temples, BYU, ward and stake budgets, all that stuff. Fast offerings go to the welfare program (and I’ve enjoyed learning about that, too), both the centralized big stuff in UT that goes to big disasters, and the local stuff that keeps struggling members afloat with food, clothing, furniture, and money (And of course they ask you to do some work in exchange–in Zion, everyone contributes). Then there are mission funds, etc. If you look at a tithing slip, you will see several different funds you can donate too, and there are others that you can write in.

Uniformity of belief in the Church–you could write a whole book on this. I personally have never understood the divisions in other denominations (an example is the Lutherans and gay unions). See, the prophet gets his revelation from God. From God. So he knows what’s up. People who decide that the prophet is wrong are denying that he is a prophet–and have already left the Church (in their hearts, at least). We have already learned that God will not allow the wrong man to become the president of the Church. There is room for many opinions in the Church, but not on points of revealed doctrine. We’re trying to build Zion here, folks–we have better things to do.
I find it interesting that you object to the way that LDS wards are all similar. Of course they are. The same work needs to be done all over the world, and the same vehicles exist to do that work. Why does this bother you? Now, if you’re thinking that the actual people in the wards are all alike, as in androids or something, you couldn’t be further off–but they hopefully all have a similar purpose and object in mind.

AndyKeats, if you want to leave the LDS Church, you can. Nobody’s stopping you. You can ask to have your name taken off the records, and no one will ever try to contact you again. But all that anti stuff you’ve been reading is ridiculous, silly stuff. OTOH, all the logical evidence for Mormonism in the world won’t convince you unless you have faith. That’s the whole point, is to have faith. Logic doesn’t even come into it except as a fun intellectual exercise, indulged in by people who already have faith. You can read Hugh Nibley and Eugene England and othes, they are very good, and Orson Scott Card has some excellent essays in * A storyteller in Zion*. But they won’t convince you, because the only thing that can really do that is the Spirit.

[emarkp]

Some quotes now from Bunnyhurt:

it pays to keep in mind that nobody in the Morg cares about the details. It always was a control cult. Sad but true.

I don’t know what “Morg” means. However, I know of no “control cult”–nor any clear definition of that phrase.

Ten reasons to rethink Mormonism…

All issues that have been refuted.

The Mormon church in Salt Lake City takes in over 6 Billion dollars a year. It is estimated that less than 1% of this is used for charitable purposes (and it is expected to be paid back). Also, there are thousands of personal examples to refute the idea that Mormons are charitable on any level and even spread the ill believe that misfortune is heaven sent. I personally think that the Mormon church competes to the detriment of legitimate charities.

I note that there is no citation for the “6 Billion” number. Furthermore, your claim is that Mormons aren’t ever charitable on any level is patently false. I am a counterexample, as is at least one other poster who personally saw something different. QED. Now, as to the idea that somehow the charitable efforts of the LDS church are a detriment to other (I’ll drop the polemic “legitimate”) charities, I’m left wondering–do you mean that feeding the hungry and clothing the naked is bad? It is detrimental? Good works such as these are being called evil?

The age of marriage in Utah is 14

Incorrect as pointed out later.

Utah is run by Mormons. Oops, there goes another one. It’s a good thing Utah is overwhelmingly Mormon, or else one might be tempted to believe their lies and disinformation regarding their claims that Mormonism improves lives and communities, contrary to official statistics.

Utah is run by elected officials, many of which are Mormon, and many of which are not. Last I checked the census details, the percentage of LDS members in the Salt Lake City area was approximately 50%, if not less, so it’s no surprise that there are many LDS and non-LDS elected officials.

I’ve seen alot of people defend Mormons on the internet, usually Mormons themselves, openly assuming they are some misunderstood persecuted cult. I am here to inform anyone on this thread that Mormons are a psychological mess. For some reason, people who claim they are better than everyone else, contrary to the facts or otherwise, are the scariest people in the world.

I’m just stunned at the juxtaposition of these sentences. Do you have any idea why LDS might see themselves as being pursecuted? Maybe others are telling us that we don’t do what we actually do, that we believe in things which we don’t actually believe in, that the good works we do are actually evil, that we are “a psychological mess”, and that we are the scariest people in the world? Can you see what you’re saying here?

As for this statistic on teenage births. This is interesting, because I happen to know two girls who were pregnant teens and the Mormon church arranged to have them sent to Texas and Hawaii to adopt out their unwanted babies via LDS Services. I reject this statistic outright for both reasons.

Again, you are free to your opinion on that, but that doesn’t make it right. It is commonly accepted as a fallacy to reject statistical data because of anecdotal evidence.

I assert that Mormonism attacts and cultivates the most self-seeking part of humanity that [brace yourself] that has learned to enjoy a fruit of reward best if they know someone else can’t have it.

Funny, I can’t say the same thing. I assert primarily the opposite. Mormonism requires that it’s members sacrifce a great deal for the benfit of others. It is a theme repeated quite frequently, and I don’t know how you missed it.

The Book of Mormon is just an excuse for a prophetship, which then defines Mormonism, it doesn’t have any doctrinal significance. In fact, the doctrine in it usually contradicts their strict prophecies. This is a Mormon contradiction specific to Mormonism.

Well, I’m just going to have to call a lie a lie. The Book of Mormon has very significant doctrinal points. And the doctrine therein does not in fact contradict “strict prophecies.”

They don’t screen out false prophets, they promote the most false to the very top via their nifty seniority system. The most successful follower of Mormonism gets to be the leader at a time when they are oldest and most feeble.

So here we have it. All Mormons are bad, the LDS church as an organization is bad, and even when Mormons think they’re doing good things, it’s actually bad. This doesn’t exactly sum up a rational or level-headed position. The only reason I replied was to make sure no one reads this drivel and believes it.

Moderators, it’s a shame the thread’s been trashed so quickly, but I think it should belong in the Pit now.

As for you, Brian Bunnyhurt, I hope you can get over this hatred you have at some point. It’s certainly not doing you any good.

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

genie,

You know it is true. Too bad they proved it false. So, you must now know they didn’t prove it false. Get it? It’s called delusion.

emarkp,

You are a perfect example of what Mormonism is all about. Fake rationality to the core. But what was this about the marriage age in Utah? Who proved it to be not 14? What did I miss?

Another question for you. How may Mormons are bad again? You implied some were and some weren’t. What was your final analysis? And who said anything about bad? I think they are all deluded to varying degrees and selfishly think they are the only ones who are not (again, to varying degrees), but you can only think of good and bad. See the problem yet?

I don’t assume that others here can make sense of our exchange and what it means for you to feel you have to defend that racist dogma and anti-history based on first rewards in heaven. They have no idea that it is your entire life, top to bottom and I just ruined your entire day. Hatred? I am sure you hate me, since I was having all the fun. How nice of genie to tell Andy that it is okay to leave. Does anyone else see what it going on here? There is no reference for it in normal people.

And one more thing, what did you mean by “all issues that have been refuted?” Not one issue has been refuted, and you are in serious weird denial. Do you dare try to tackle one? DNA? Book of Abraham? Hiding historical records? Kinderhook? You are completely insane if you think these are or have been refuted, intelligent people are leaving your cult in droves over these issues and nobody with an IQ over 100 is joining anymore.

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

Oh, emarkp,

That 6 Billion number came from the Ostlings book, Mormon America. Never read it, but you sound ready to dispute this number. What did you think it was? genie knows, she claims they told her Sunday School, even though it is the most closely guarded secret in Utah.

[dangermom]

Brian, your arguments aren’t even worth answering. I’d be interested in knowing whether you belong to any church–there are many Fundamentalists, etc. who really hate the LDS church, and you sound like you might be one.

I don’t happen to think that anyone has proved the Church to be false–every ‘proof’ I’ve read (and I’ve read plenty) has been nonsensical and ridiculous. If I had time and patience, I could answer every one, but many others have done it for me, and you’d never be convinced anyway. Hugh Nibley has a nice book called Tinkling cymbals and sounding brass–anyone who’s interested can take a look there. If anyone wants to rationally discuss actual points of doctrine or practice because they are interested in an exchange of ideas, I’ll be happy to participate.

And I’ve read Mormon America–interesting book, and one of the most balanced non-LDS perspectives I’ve read, although I don’t agree with all of their conclusions. Emarkp never argued with your number (which is, btw, an estimate), he merely asked for a citation. What’s the big secret? There isn’t one. The Church’s money is spent maintaining the Church, doing missionary work, charity, and so on. So what? Every member of the Church knows that, and those who pay tithing do it knowing where their money is headed.

[Monster104]

Brian, after reading all your posts, you sound like you’re prejudiced against the LDS church. You’re stating theories, possibilities, guesses, ideas, and apparent conflicts with the LDS ideology as fact. Why? Calling members of a religious affiliation members of a cult is highly insulting, especially when you haven’t given any information to support your wildly speculative conspiracy claims about the LDS Church. You need to start doing some better research.

[PeeQueue]

Ok, maybe Brian does have some bias; it sure sounds like he does. But as an outsider there are a couple of facts that I do have a hard time getting my head around. Let’s pick one of the ones that has been put forward, but has not been responded to very well by any of the Mormons yet.

How do you reconcile the fact that DNA evidence proves that Native Americans came from a different people than the one the BoM says they do, and how come none of those objects mentioned (wheels, swords, etc.) were ever found in America?

I’m hoping that Brian or others can give a cite that states these proofs, and also that our Mormon members can tell us how they are able to get around those cites.

PeeQueue

[jmullaney]

*Originally posted by genie *
See, the prophet gets his revelation from God. From God. So he knows what’s up. People who decide that the prophet is wrong are denying that he is a prophet–and have already left the Church (in their hearts, at least). We have already learned that God will not allow the wrong man to become the president of the Church. There is room for many opinions in the Church, but not on points of revealed doctrine.

1. Where is this revealed doctrine which says your Living Prophet is always right, and God will never select the wrong man?

2. How can you rebuild Zion if you do not keep Jesus’s commandments?

[Brian_Bunnyhurt]

PeeQueue,

The links were all posted earlier for discussion of the issues, if any of them deserve serious consideration. No Mormon ever raises these issues to convert people, but pretend to say they have been debunked to confuse naysayers.

Monster104,

No Mormon needed support of any argument to join, and to leave, they need to get over the idea that you can prove lesser religious claims like spirit and god and divine prophecy as true or false, which is how they are indoctrinated, and which you seem to enforce by placing the burden of proof on me (common mistake). Fortunately, Mormonism attempted a false history of America that has been debunked by scientific methods, but, take a look at genie’s comments. “Nobody proved it wrong” Where did anyone prove it right? If you or anybody have a question about any of my assertions (that Mormons won’t touch), please ask, I will supply a paragraph of citations and related articles. Most Mormons have never heard of them before and all they know is that there is an official story they have been brainwashed in, and my assertions contradict those assertions. Hopefully, they will be spurred to investigate the validity of what they are trained to bear witness in.