Now here I have to agree. Utah seems to be (at least one of) the scam capitals of the country. I’ve not been able to come up with good reasons that explain to my satisfaction the extent of this(Brian’s assertion that it is the pure gullibility of stupid mormons notwithstanding). But for whatever reason, it seems I’ve seen more pyramid schemes and get-rich-quick scams here in Utah then anywhere else.
One thing I have noticed (and this may actually bolster the mormon gullibility angle) is that on some occasions, one church member will get taken in, and on their recommendation other members will jump in simply out of trust for the first member. Sort of like snagging 10 fish when only one actually takes the bait. I can’t quite decide if that is gullibility or a kind of noble trust in their fellow man. I lean toward gullibility, but still have a hard time believing that this accounts for all of the con-man heaven we seem to have here. But since I’ve never been directly involved, this may be ignorance on my part.
Brian, why do you still insist on not providing any cites? You have no hard evidence on your side. You’re backed up against a wall. All you’ve been doing is spreading inflammatory anti-mormon rhetoric.
Please provide cites. We’re in a debate, an intelligent discourse about a topic. You’re making up trash as you go along, and when people ask for proof or a cite, you either A) Give a link to a website that has nothing to do with the evidence requested or B) Make wild claims that the cites do not exist.
Well, first of all, I don’t claim to completely understand why a physical baptism is necessary, but then you have to understand that I’ve not been to church in 10+ years due to psychological problems and social phobia, and my memory is a bit rusty. Basically, as I understand it, Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)
Since a man must be “born of water” to enter the kingdom of God, and since spirits cannot be physically baptized, baptisms for the dead are performed by proxy.
And it does matter that people hear the gospel in this life rather than wait for the next one, simply because it’s easier to change while we are mortal than when we are post-mortal spirits, much like it’s easier to mold clay when it’s soft and wet rather than hard and dry. And as Alma in the Book of Mormon said, “This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God,” and that if we procrastinate our repentance until the end, the devil seals us his and we won’t be able to repent. (See Alma 34:32-35, Book of Mormon: http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/34 )
Some opportunities end with the occurrance of death, especially for people “in-the-know” who sin anyway. For instance, if I know but don’t keep the commandments and rebel against God all my life and die unrepentant and in my sins, I will no longer be eligible for the Celestial Kingdom, but will have to suffer for my own sins, and mercy has no more claim on me forever. Only the devil and his angels suffer “the second death” forever and go to a physical place called “hell.” Everyone else will be redeemed, forgiven of their sins if they repent and haven’t committed the unpardonable sin, and assigned a place in one of three “degrees of glory” in God’s kingdom.
There is no reincarnation in LDS belief. There is no “next time around” in which to gain “secret knowledge.” The next life is simply the continuation of our mortal life, but as disembodied spirits. These spirits will eventually be bodily resurrected, and will be immortal. This is what I meant when I said “the next life,” not reincarnation.
It’s true, local Mormon Bishop’s (my dad was one) can subtract a modicum of funds before sending it to Salt Lake to disperse to the neediest members, but sometimes they are given janitorial positions if it is chronic. By the way, this is my personal anecdote post, so ignore it completely. But my dad put in 40 hours a week as Bishop with seven kids. Needless to say, most of his kids want nothing to do with Mormonism.
As for your story, which I fully believe, it happens all the time. But the dark side is two-fold. They often employ the neediest members on stake farms or at Deseret Industries at half minimum wage. (I didn’t believe until exmo’s on the exmo board started posting their experiences). Also, the one and only personal story that I have heard straight from her lips to my ears about a bishop helping out was a friend of mine who needed 200 bucks to avoid eviction. She got it, but the Bishop counseled her NOT to apply for food stamps and that was her planned action. It may have been a personal thing on his part, I don’t know if he was following protocol. But, nonetheless, I think it could be called quasi-seditious to set up your own fake charity, then demonize a public one, if that is the case here.
But Brian, the important factor about education is not how much money is spent (though some would try to convince you otherwise), but rather the results.
So what is the complaint? That in Utah they can spend about 2/3 that of us in CA but get better results? Sounds like they’re doing better than most of the nation as far as expense/results go.
And as for food stamps, they are not a charity, but rather government assistance. The Bishop’s advice you quote means that he was attempting to have the church shoulder the burden of providing for the woman’s shortfall instead of the government. I wish we had more organizations like this! Imagine if we didn’t need any government welfare programs because we as private citizens, members of churches, and associates of charites provided for everyone’s needs! Isn’t that a goal worth working toward?
The SAT scores are for those students attending Eastern schools, the best students.
The ACT scores are taken by only 70% of Utah students. The ACT test is only standard in Western States, and if it were to be averaged nationally it would be below average (factoring in an equivilent score for SAT). If there was one standard test, statistically adjusted for the number of students who take this imaginary test, Utah would rank about 40th by my estimation, pretty poor considering.
By the way, there is a standardized 4th and 8th grade test also known as SAT. These scores are average or below. The Democratic challenger for governor, in the last election, campaigned on the education issue, stating publicly that Utah is among the worst in almost every category. In Utah schools, teachers had a statewide walk-out this year. Locally, in a nearby high school to me, students had a walk-out last week to protest poor computers and textbooks. I’m just reporting this information.
As for charity, my assertion is that local bishops use a small amount of tithing for the only charity function it serves. The rest if forwarded towards the empire’s secret funds.
For all you stats freaks, I am currently searching for one of the most disturbing stats there is also published in the Tribune (which requires payment to access archives): drug use. Utah ranks second in meth production and first in per capita consumption (or the other way around). I have lost more friends to meth than Mormonism. Yes, I am asserting that Mormonism stunts the average person just enough to create this black mark, ask a psychologist why. This is all called “social proof” in sociology, against Mormonism. Take it or leave it. I also believe that Mormons cheat on their taxes more than anyone else. How in hell would I surmise this? People talk about openly here (like a duty), and the IRS performs more audits in Utah and among Mormons than any other group. Again, take it for what it is worth.
To those who think I am hateful to Mormonism, perhaps you might consider that I am involved in the schools and see the wasted lives first hand due to stupid conservatism that breeds alot of kids and hates to pay taxes to enable them to contribute to a greater society. You hate-accusers remind me of people who like the idea of polygamy for its odd quaintness. These smug types don’t see the real evil: the brutalization, the child-molestation, the blood-feuds, the anti-government hate and perversity of a 90 year-old marrying fifteen year-old nieces as their twentieth bride. I’ve seen entire schools shut down (Colorado City, AZ, and Hildale UT) because some patriarch predicted the end of world for the eleventh time. Have a nice day and consider yourself lucky.
emarkp:WRONG. i read it with my own eyes. A Mormon leader was quoted saying exactly that. As soon as I get it, I will post it. Its in the book Mormonism 101, one of the best books on the truth of Mormonism.
Hey news flash! Theres a new church! Its the church of the Penguin that is the Only true church. How do we know? The penguins said so. How do we know they are right? They said they are! So simple!
And they say that the book of Mormon is true as Long as its interpreted correctly. Gee, God keeps coming up with newer and truer ones all the time.
Hebrews 9:27 says after death the judgement. There is no chance after death. praying for dead people will do no good.
The Mormon church has borrowed quite a bit from the Catholic church, which lights candles for the dead.
ALso the Bible says No ONE is righteous. SO all the Mormons who are “worthy” to go into the temples are frauds. They think they are worthy.
And if your church says you aren’t worhty to go into its temple, why are you here defending it? One and probably 2 of the Mormons here posting aren’t considered worthy by their own church. Doesn’t seem logical.
I didn’t specify earlier, the leader has sais all other churches are of the devil. I will get the quote for you all.
Heres a quote from the Journal of Discourses 6:20: And who is there that acknoweldges God’s hand? You cannot find it in ANY church or government except for the Church of jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Read the whole link.
Excerpt from The Blessings of an Honest Tithe by Marion G. Romney
"A Sound Financial Investment
That this promise of a material reward has universal application is evidenced by the fact that it was repeated by the resurrected Savior himself to the Nephites, and by the further fact that he instructed the Nephites to write it in their records so that it might come to us in the Book of Mormon, and we have it there (see 3 Ne. 24:8-11).
Furthermore, when Moroni visited the Prophet Joseph Smith on the evening of September 21, 1823, he quoted to him part of the third chapter in Malachi, in which chapter this promise is made. In harmony with this scripture, I heard President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., a modern prophet, say over and over again that the Lord would never let one of his Saints who had been faithful in the payment of tithes and offerings go without the necessities of life.
That the Lord faithfully fulfills his promise in this respect is witnessed by all people who obey the law."
Curriculum/Sunday School/Preparing for Exaltation Teacher’s Manual/Lesson 29 Paying Tithing with the Right Attitude:
"How might the Lord “open … the windows of heaven” to bless us when we pay tithing?
Explain that the blessings the Lord may provide to people who pay tithing include the ability to earn enough money to provide for their needs, the ability to use money wisely, protection from costly catastrophes, and the joy of sharing and giving."
(Note: This particular quote is interesting, because it comes from a Sunday School manual. If you go to the link and read the whole lesson, you can see how the Church gives vague written promises, but detailed verbal promises from the testimonies of local leaders and teachers which can later be discounted. A form of “plausible deniability.” It’s interesting also that the blessings of paying tithing also “include the ability to earn enough money to provide for their needs.” This would seem to go against the idea that people who pay tithing and then go bankrupt are “living beyond their means.”)
These aren’t exactly what you’re looking for, but I hope it helps. There are tons of quotes from http://library.lds.org
I would just like to go on the record as stating that I attended Freshman and Sophomore year in Utah and Jr and Sr year in California. Guess what? I am far ahead of many of my fellow class mates this year because of the education I received in Utah. I don’t have a cite with neat stats about SAT and ACT. However I do know that after only one year in CA, I moved to the top 4% of the class of 532. The 500-some-odd people who are behind me all attended California schools their entire life.
Maybe Utah could spend more money on the students, but I don’t think they need too. Because the classes are smaller, and there is more one on one time between teachers and students. So what’s more important? Money, or the time spent in class with each individual student? Furthermore, I have found that many parents in Utah are far more involved with their childrens’ school and extra-curricular activities than they are here in CA. But that’s just IMHO and personal experience.
Also, I still don’t understand why there are people in this thread who insist on drawing direct corrolations between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and Utah as a whole. Like I said earlier, everybody in Utah is not Mormon, and everybody who is Mormon is not a Utahn.
If you want to attack the fine citizens of Utah, do not bring the LDS Church into it. If you want to attack the fine citizens of the LDS Church, do not get Utah involved! Utah may not be as diverse as, say, California, but it does have a rich heritage, with many different cultures and religions living there, involved in the community, government, etc.
Yes, and a far better one than you appear to be in this thread. My query for you is: “Do you consider yourself rational?”
Cites, statistics, evidence? {From here on, this will be typed as REFRAIN FROM THE CHORUS.}
Quaking in my boots. {I haven’t actually worn boots for six years now, but I’m sure you at least understand the expression.)
This is relevant to what I asked exactly how? As it is, the only one for whom I can answer this for is me. The answer is “I am semi-active.”
I’ll venture that tithing is collected on the ratio of a self-declared 10% of increase (earned income) by those who voluntarily donate tithing. You appear to confuse a church (non-governmental organization) with the government. The church receives tithings; it doesn’t go out and take tithings.
Point being? What the hey, I’ll play. What are the salaries of all the officers of all the charitable organizations all over the world which receive charitable donations?
This is relevant exactly how? Are you implying here that the rich have no right to faith? Or is it the poor you despise?
Correctly? One. Incorrectly? Could be any number of times. However, if the practice has any validity, then the deity presiding over the universe is not fooled by a clerical error. {Yes, I do see the pun in “clerical error” when referring to priests.}
Logician-Monte and Statistician-Beaker are gonna get on your case because you forgot to say that you were below average in Utah, otherwise your point is moot. By the way, schools differ too. This is what we mean by personal anecdote. It never really applies in argument except in cases of rape or incest. Right, Monte? (That was a joke, PLG, it applies in defending against personal attacks is what I mean to say, such as when I used it.)
Not to give you a hard time or anything, but Mormons make up personal stories like this for a spiritual existence to validate their entire worldview, and they rarely credit anything unless it is a personal anecdote, and GBeaker and Monte sit quiet right there during the whole meeting. Right, GB?
Vanilla, here are some reasons why your quote is not valid.
First of all, when evangelical and fundamentalist Christians encounter the LDS Church and learn that it has its own scriptures and prophets, many of them immediately assume that if one or two obscure quotes from some LDS Church leader in the past can be proven inaccurate or false, then the LDS Church is automatically false. This is, I suppose, a reflection of the idea that the Bible is God’s “only word,” completely infallible, and that prophets also are or should be completely infallible also. The problem with this assumption is, the LDS do NOT consider the Bible, their other scriptures, or even their own prophets to be completely infallible. Infallibility is something you are bringing from your own religion and projecting on the LDS Church.
Joseph Smith made the statement that (to paraphrase) a prophet is only a prophet when he is speaking as such. Not everything every LDS Church leader has ever said at any time in any place is considered “official Church doctrine.” Official Church doctrine is anything found in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price (with the exception of the Song of Solomon, which Joseph Smith declared to be uninspired). Official Church doctrine is also those doctrines which are voted on in General Conference by the membership of the Church to be binding as such. The Journal of Discourses, while often helpful, is not official Church doctrine, so cannot be used as binding against the LDS Church.
Not everything which is true is “official” Church doctrine. The equation 2+2=4 is certainly true, but it’s not official LDS doctrine. So something can be true without being officially recognized as such.
Church leaders can express their own opinions, write books on gospel topics (such as “Mormon Doctrine,” which is NOT officially Church doctrine), and state their theories and ideas without those things being official. The so-called “Adam-God doctrine” is not recognized as a true doctrine by the Church, even though Brigham Young apparently taught it once. He never taught it before that time, and he never taught it afterwards, to my knowledge. The LDS church does not recognize it as doctrine, never has, never will, IMHO. Church leaders are fallible, human people doing the best they can to lead the Church. They make mistakes. Not all Church leaders are in complete agreement on every topic, nor do all Church leaders understand all points of doctrine identically and universally. There is room for speculation.
Faith will ALWAYS be required. Why do you think God doesn’t just deliver the Golden Plates from which the BoM was translated to the prophets so they can prove to the world that the BoM is true? It’s because we, and our faith, are being tested by God. Why doesn’t God come down and knock on Gaudere’s door and say, “Look, here I am, I’m God and I can prove it!”? Again, it’s because faith is required. Eventually everyone will know that God exists in a way that is completely undeniable, because we will all meet Him when we are judged. But atheists are free to believe what they wish right now. Their faith also is being tested.
So if some LDS person says such-and-such at some time, does that make the whole Church bound to believe what that person (or leader) said? If a Church leader believes that all the 10 lost tribes of Israel are somewhere up in the Arctic underneath the ice in a hidden cave, does the LDS Church have to accept that as official doctrine just because one of its leaders believed it? Of course not!
Like I said, official doctrine is limited to the scriptures and to doctrines voted on in General Conference as binding on the membership.
I hope this helps you understand LDS doctrines better. Certainly books that are hostile towards the LDS Church and gaining a profit from attacking it, are really not the best place to learn about Mormonism.
You failed to impress me here, I wasn’t even kidding when I asked them and you pretended there were known answers but that it was so common as to be a joke, nice try. Utah is poor by the way, it just suffers from a theoretical hard-liner problem that defines reality for them. You’ve seen it before no doubt, like when things fail in China or America and the leaders blame anyone but themselves and their theories. “We can’t be wrong, because it says so right here!” As they (and you) are fond of saying.
By the way, if you don’t know who I despise, you have no right suggesting I despise anyone. Felice and Angros will be along shortly to call you a blind hate-monger.
Well, i have no scientific studies to cite to back this assertion up, but I believe it. I have known 3 mormons/ex-mormons very well. 2 were a complete mess and the other one is my borther-in-law who, having managed to extricate himself from the church, is still pretty pissed off but has managed to move beyond it.
One of the three I know was deeply, painfully, agonizingly screwed precisely because of the church. I cannot even begin to tell you the many ways his neuroses and psychoses manifested around his church. This kid was SUCH a fucking mess. Of course, he had the extra mental-health burden of being genius-level intelligent. Layer that with hardcore whacko theology, and well, not a pretty picture.
I have a pretty good idea about why people find LDS so damned appealing, tho. Unlike any other religion I have ever heard of, LDS is the ONLY one that promises that life after death will include all the goodies of life itself, most compellingly, sex. Not to mention the prospect of becoming a god yourself, but even without that, what other religion promises sex after death? That’s a mighty appealing promise. Better than harps and wings!