# A question for opponents of gay marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645 "2009-05-26T03:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/241 "2009-05-27T02:28:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. Are you saying that “those who oppose SSM” is not a group ? And that **mswas** does not belong to that group ? SSM opponents are probably actually multiple groups, not a single, homogeneous group. magellan01, for example, has no connection to any group opposing SSM on religious grounds. mswas has repeatedly stated that he favors SSM, but that he does not like the arguments employed by some pro-SSM people and, being an argumentative sort, he is battling what he considers to be bad logic. So you are guilty of making baseless assumptions regarding at least two of your opponents and magellan01 is right that your great, broad tar brush is not appropriate to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/242 "2009-05-27T02:30:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not relevant. It’s the fucking POINT of it. The idea isn’t that someplace on the planet or some ancient culture that the letters m-a-r-r-i-a-g-e existed in that order and applied to something other than a man-woman relationship. The point is did it apply to a SS relationship where the couple was accept as a man-woman couple. Actually the point was that **maswas** knew of no society that had any form of sanctioned SSM. There is at least one such society. All of the evidence presented confirms that the marriage is considered the same as a male-female relationship. If you have other evidence, please present it. > [@](#): > > And I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but if a culture outlaws gay sex and lesbian sex UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH, I’m gonna guess it’s IMPOSSIBLE to include that those relationships are accepted and embraced the way a man-woman marriage is. Do you have any evidence to support your, and I quote, “guess”? I have presented evidence from more than one person that they are, in fact, accepted the same way a male-female marriage is accepted. Please present your evidence that this is not so. > [@](#): > > I guess the only thing that would show that they are just as accepted is if you can point to one of their laws that says that a man-woman sex is also subject to a death penalty. This makes absolutely no sense. None. As has been shown, the marriages are not lesbian marriages. They are SSM. As I’m sure many married people in heterosexual marriages will testify, marriage may or may not include sex. > [@](#): > > Please, think about this. Your desperation is getting the better of you. I am not desperate. There is no tone of desperation in my posts. I have presented factual information showing that there is indeed a society the like of which **mswas** was unaware. If you have something that contradicts what I have cited, other than your guess or your inabililty to believe, please show it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/243 "2009-05-27T02:33:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Here ya go: [Yeesh.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Sudan) Again, these are not lesbian marriages. They are same-sex marriages. Your cite does not refute that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/244 "2009-05-27T02:35:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The Nuer are animists. The anti-homosexual laws are imposed by the Muslim-run government. > > I think that this whole Nuer situation is mostly a hijack\*, but frothing at the mouth and lashing out at each other instead of doing the tiniest bit of research to discover the situation is no more helpful than some members of the pro-SSM crowd running about crying “Bigotry”! > > \*(For those anti-SSM folks who have insisted that marriage has always and everywhere been heterosexual, it is a valid refutation, but it fails to address the fact that 99.999% of the population growing up in the U.S. will be unaware of that fact or that that particular argument is not being advanced in this thread.) I agree completely, **tomndebb**. It is off topic. I was merely trying to inform. Some people have refused to believe the facts offered, even tho they have no contrary evidence to present to back up their refusal. It does exist, it is a marriage. It’s a fact. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/245 "2009-05-27T02:39:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The link is right there. > > Now that someone has pointed out that **mswas** ’s statement was wrong. It’s called “moving the goalposts”. My bad. I was confused because I had recently typed something almost identical. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. Are you saying that “those who oppose SSM” is not a group ? And that **mswas** does not belong to that group ? Oh, please. You always try to demonize any group you don’t like—and then in the most extreme way. It’s fucking ridiculous. Why the need to create an us versus them mentality. I would have thought that you, of all posters, would abhor such tactics. ::shrugs:: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/246 "2009-05-27T02:41:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > SSM opponents are probably actually multiple groups, not a single, homogeneous group. magellan01, for example, has no connection to any group opposing SSM on religious grounds. > > mswas has repeatedly stated that he favors SSM, but that he does not like the arguments employed by some pro-SSM people and, being an argumentative sort, he is battling what he considers to be bad logic. > > So you are guilty of making baseless assumptions regarding at least two of your opponents and magellan01 is right that your great, broad tar brush is not appropriate to this thread. [Since I can’t respond honestly here . . .](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11181364#post11181364) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/247 "2009-05-27T02:42:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I agree completely, **tomndebb**. It is off topic. I was merely trying to inform. Some people have refused to believe the facts offered, even tho they have no contrary evidence to present to back up their refusal. > > It does exist, it is a marriage. It’s a fact. That’s all. I love the smell of desperation. And what it does to those who give off its odor. On a scale of 1 to 10, you’re at about 9 trillion. And you’re hanging on to it. Great entertainment. Great stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/248 "2009-05-27T02:44:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I love the smell of desperation. And what it does to those who give off its odor. On a scale of 1 to 10, you’re at about 9 trillion. And you’re hanging on to it. > > Great entertainment. Great stuff. Did you have some evidence to present? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/249 "2009-05-27T02:45:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Did you have some evidence to present? He hasn’t in all this time, why start now ? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/250 "2009-05-27T03:00:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Did you have some evidence to present? Already supplied in Post 238. Just click on it. Also, these lesbian relationships of the Nuer are also polygamist. Can you not see that they have no bearing on the word “marriage” in our culture. I call the entire thing bullshit, the product of a biased look at the culture by people with an agenda to make a point. There is no way you can have a marriage, one that resembles anything in western culture or any other, that has any relation to our meaning of the word where the participants can’t have sex under penalty of death. But you keep hanging your hat on it. Do you have a hat or something I can throw a few coins in? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/251 "2009-05-27T03:16:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Already supplied in Post 238. Just click on it. Which he responded to in post 243. I’d never heard of the Nuer before this thread, but it’s clear from just the posts here that the marriages in question are not lesbian marriages, they are property and child-raising arrangements between two women which have the same status as opposite-sex marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/252 "2009-05-27T03:20:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Marriage between a man and a woman is a right. That much is plain and simple. Anything beyond that is up for discussion. What is the legal difference between a man and a woman in the United States? What privileges, responsibilities and/or restrictions does one gender legally face that the other does not? There was a time when women could not vote or possess property, for example. What are the modern equivalents? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/253 "2009-05-27T03:23:46Z")
What with all the side issues and obvious hijacking going on, may I assume that [this question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11177400&postcount=1) has been answered, and if so, would someone mind pointing out where? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/254 "2009-05-27T03:27:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The cuter you try to get the less you’re helping yourself. It just gets more and more clumsy. The fact is we don’t use modifiers for marriage because the word doesn’t need them. It has been a given that it was constituted of one man and one woman. And, as much as it pains me to have to point this out, in OUR culture. You want to change that. I don’t. Actually I don’t want to change the definition of marriage. I want to return it to stressing the meaningful part , love, and the quality of commitment, rather than the less meaningful stressing of gender only. Apart from that I was only taking \*\*your \*\* club analogy to it’s logical conclusion based on what you said. It’s not my fault your own analogy shows the weakness of your argument. btw, that little fact you mentioned about how we don’t use modifiers for marriage is no a fact at all. I’ll grant you that for most of our history marriage has meant a man and a woman. What you haven’t established is that tradition should have any weight when it comes to SSM. We have this other interesting tradition in OUR culture. We change and grow as a society based on principles such as justice and equality. My conclusion is that lacking one shred of evidence that SSM will harm hetero couples or society as a whole in any way, I think the more important tradition is standing up for equal rights for our fellow citizens moving society forward. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/255 "2009-05-27T03:28:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Already supplied in Post 238. Just click on it. That shows that sex between people of the same gender is illegal, not that female-female marriages do no exist, nor that they are illegal. > [@](#): > > Also, these lesbian relationships of the Nuer are also polygamist. Again: these are not lesbian relationships. Please provide a cite that they are polygamist. > [@](#): > > Can you not see that they have no bearing on the word “marriage” in our culture. I call the entire thing bullshit, the product of a biased look at the culture by people with an agenda to make a point. So you are now asserting that E. Kathleen Gough had a pro-SSM agenda when she wrote her paper in 1959? That E. E. Evans-Pritchard had a pro-SSM agenda when he wrote his papers in the 1930s? That Professors Schultz and Lavenda also each have a pro-SSM agenda so great that they would risk their professional reputation as anthropologists to insert it into a research paper about people from NW Africa? Seriously? That’s your contention? Do you have any evidence for that, or is this another one of your guesses? > [@](#): > > There is no way you can have a marriage, one that resembles anything in western culture or any other, that has any relation to our meaning of the word where the participants can’t have sex under penalty of death. Again, these marriages are not lesbian relationships. The purpose of the marriage is not to legitimize sexual congress. As has been pointed out many times, marriage does not of necessity include sex, nor procreation, nor the ability (or desire) for either. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/256 "2009-05-27T03:33:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What with all the side issues and obvious hijacking going on, may I assume that [this question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11177400&postcount=1) has been answered, and if so, would someone mind pointing out where? Yeah, I keep waiting for someone to answer it, too. The closest we’ve come, I think, is “it would be different than it is now”. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/257 "2009-05-27T03:40:51Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > Which he responded to in post 243. I’d never heard of the Nuer before this thread, but it’s clear from just the posts here that the marriages in question are not lesbian marriages, they are property and child-raising arrangements between two women which have the same status as opposite-sex marriages. They may for some things, but not for all. Unless you can point to where a heterosexual couple will be killed if they have sex. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/258 "2009-05-27T03:42:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What is the legal difference between a man and a woman in the United States? What privileges, responsibilities and/or restrictions does one gender legally face that the other does not? > > There was a time when women could not vote or possess property, for example. What are the modern equivalents? I’m not aware of any. Maybe, when it comes to abortion, obviously. Or, perhaps the marrying age in some states. Maybe not. Why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/259 "2009-05-27T03:46:53Z")
I would like to know if **magellan01** can answer the following: What, specifically, would be the negative consequences of allowing gays to marry? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/260 "2009-05-27T03:48:02Z")
Hello? Is this thing on? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645.md?page=14)