# A question for opponents of gay marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645 "2009-05-26T03:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/261 "2009-05-27T03:49:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What with all the side issues and obvious hijacking going on, may I assume that [this question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11177400&postcount=1) has been answered, and if so, would someone mind pointing out where? Oh, [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11181531&postcount=125) you go. You might also find [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10894824&postcount=1) informative. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/262 "2009-05-27T03:51:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not aware of any. Maybe, when it comes to abortion, obviously. Or, perhaps the marrying age in some states. Maybe not. Why do you ask? I do so hate to distract from this engaging sidenote, but would you mind giving us a straightforward answer to [this simple question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11177400&postcount=1) which, as it so happens, is the actual OP this thread is supposedly all about. Just this simple question. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/263 "2009-05-27T03:55:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11181531&postcount=125) you go. > > You might also find [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10894824&postcount=1) informative. The first one doesn’t answer the question posed in the OP. Neither does the second. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/264 "2009-05-27T04:01:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Actually I don’t want to change the definition of marriage. I want to return it to stressing the meaningful part , love, and the quality of commitment, rather than the less meaningful stressing of gender only. > > Apart from that I was only taking \*\*your \*\* club analogy to it’s logical conclusion based on what you said. It’s not my fault your own analogy shows the weakness of your argument. btw, that little fact you mentioned about how we don’t use modifiers for marriage is no a fact at all. > > I’ll grant you that for most of our history marriage has meant a man and a woman. What you haven’t established is that tradition should have any weight when it comes to SSM. We have this other interesting tradition in OUR culture. We change and grow as a society based on principles such as justice and equality. My conclusion is that lacking one shred of evidence that SSM will harm hetero couples or society as a whole in any way, I think the more important tradition is standing up for equal rights for our fellow citizens moving society forward. Other than the notion that you followed the analogy to a logical conclusion (which I disagree with), I thank you for this post. By doing what some on your side ridiculously refuse to do—grant simple facts—like the traditional definition of marriage being between one man and one woman, we can get to the heart of the debate: Should we change it? And our culture? Those are fair questions. I previous threads, I have supplied the logic behind my thinking. The call was for a “rational” argument, and I gave just that. But what was really wanted was “evidence”. So I’m working on that. In the near future (I hope) I’ll be starting a thread with a long-ass OP laying it all out. Rationale and evidence. But it makes nonsense for me to get into that now when there will just be the same cries for more than “a rational (logical) argument”. Thank you again for this sensible post. Really. It’s breath of fresh air. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/265 "2009-05-27T04:05:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The first one doesn’t answer the question posed in the OP. > Neither does the second. Wait. I thought you were done. You even said “Goodbye”. And “Fuck you”. And I think you might have missed some pertinent info in my links. Perhaps you should study them more. In fact, yes. Yes, you should. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/266 "2009-05-27T04:06:48Z")
I don’t think **magellan01** can hear me. Can someone else please ask him the following question: **What, specifically, would be the negative consequences of allowing gays to marry?** ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/267 "2009-05-27T04:21:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I previous threads, I have supplied the logic behind my thinking. The call was for a “rational” argument, and I gave just that. Actually, the call in this thread was for substantive predictions, but you ignored that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/268 "2009-05-27T04:35:59Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I don’t think **magellan01** can hear me. Can someone else please ask him the following question: > > **What, specifically, would be the negative consequences of allowing gays to marry?** Please read Post 264. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/269 "2009-05-27T04:37:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Actually, the call in this thread was for substantive predictions, but you ignored that. :rolleyes:For which, I would have been asked to supply substantiation. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/270 "2009-05-27T04:42:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Please read Post 264. In which you say: > [@](#): > > So I’m working on that. In the near future (I hope) I’ll be starting a thread with a long-ass OP laying it all out. Rationale and evidence. So you’re working on the answer to the question: “What, specifically, would be the negative consequences of allowing gays to marry?” And we’ll get the answer soon, in a “long-ass” OP, which will “lay it all out”?? Is that about the crux of it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/271 "2009-05-27T04:46:27Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > In which you say: > > So you’re working on the answer to the question: > “What, specifically, would be the negative consequences of allowing gays to marry?” > > And we’ll get the answer soon, in a “long-ass” OP, which will “lay it all out”?? > > Is that about the crux of it? Yes. That’s it. I certainly hope that meets with your approval. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/272 "2009-05-27T04:46:35Z")
Never mind… I see that you’re working on this difficult question, and I look forward to the long-ass OP with substantiation. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/273 "2009-05-27T04:47:54Z")
Wanna hear something funny? Here’s the thing: you have all this clamoring for me to supply what I think these negative effects with be, and people are pulling their hair out insisting, begging, demanding, pleading that I supply them with this information they so hunger for, yet so much could have been satisfied with a little searching. Quite funny. In fact, there was a thread linked to in one of these recent threads last night or today that contained this life-sustaining knowledge so many so desperately seek, and it was simply ignored. Even after I pointed there. Funny. Funny. FUNNY. Say goodnight, Gracie. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/274 "2009-05-27T04:49:30Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Never mind… I see that you’re working on this difficult question, and I look forward to the long-ass OP with substantiation. Thank you for understanding. Nite. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/275 "2009-05-27T05:05:45Z")
So still nothing, huh? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/276 "2009-05-27T08:08:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Wanna hear something funny? Here’s the thing: you have all this clamoring for me to supply what I think these negative effects with be, and people are pulling their hair out insisting, begging, demanding, pleading that I supply them with this information they so hunger for, yet so much could have been satisfied with a little searching. Quite funny. In fact, there was a thread linked to in one of these recent threads last night or today that contained this life-sustaining knowledge so many so desperately seek, and it was simply ignored. Even after I pointed there. > > Funny. Funny. FUNNY. > > Say goodnight, Gracie. Let’s see if I understand this: You have no answer to the OP, other than an unsubstantiated reference to another thread . . . and your intention to answer it in a future thread. So why are you in this thread at all? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/277 "2009-05-27T11:35:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Other than the notion that you followed the analogy to a logical conclusion (which I disagree with), I thank you for this post. By doing what some on your side ridiculously refuse to do—grant simple facts—like the traditional definition of marriage being between one man and one woman, we can get to the heart of the debate: Should we change it? And our culture? Those are fair questions. > > I previous threads, I have supplied the logic behind my thinking. The call was for a “rational” argument, and I gave just that. But what was really wanted was “evidence”. So I’m working on that. In the near future (I hope) I’ll be starting a thread with a long-ass OP laying it all out. Rationale and evidence. But it makes nonsense for me to get into that now when there will just be the same cries for more than “a rational (logical) argument”. > > Thank you again for this sensible post. Really. It’s breath of fresh air. Well, you’re welcome. I only hope it leads to progress rather than more circles. I hope it’s clear that I see SSM as one more thing that warrants change {correction} among the history of things in our culture that have been changed. I acknowledge that\* for the most part \* marriage has traditionally been one man and one woman but the notable exceptions people have pointed out are relevant. I never took it as people stubbornly refusing to acknowledge something about marriage and tradition but rather they correctly pointed out that the absolute of marriage tradition so often pointed to, didn’t actually exist. Nonetheless, I look forward to reading the post you describe. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/278 "2009-05-27T13:37:09Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > In what way is any statute which prohibits marriage between two people of the same gender a violation of the Constitution’s Equal Protection clause of th 14th Amendment? If it also prohibited marriage between opposite genders, there would be no EP violation. If the distinction is created without a rational basis (which is the case), that is an EP violation. Pretty basic material. Were you trying to make a point of some kind there, or just play Socrates? > [@](#): > > Do you have decisional law on your side? You might read _Goodridge_ sometime. Fascinating stuff, I quite recommend it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/279 "2009-05-27T13:39:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not aware of any. Maybe, when it comes to abortion, obviously. Or, perhaps the marrying age in some states. Maybe not. Why do you ask? So when Sean and Robin fill out a marriage license, what obligation does the state have to find out what genders Sean and Robin are, if there is no legal difference? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/280 "2009-05-27T13:39:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well first of all you have to establish that SSM IS actually a right before you can determine whether or not it should be upheld or denied. No, you don’t. You first have to establish that \*equal protection of the laws \*is a right Oh, look, there it is, right in the 14th Amendment! How about that, folks? Amazing what you can learn in middle school Civics class if you show up, isn’t it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645.md?page=15)