# A question for opponents of gay marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645 "2009-05-26T03:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/541 "2009-05-28T23:15:34Z")
[quote=“mswas, post:512, topic:497645”] > [@mswas](#): > > Only to the morons. More people stated clear understanding of my point than continue to have trouble understanding me. As this is the case, I am going to assume that you are just a poor listener. > > Since I am about to bow out of this thread. > > It’s not my fault you are a fucking moron. Your arguments are poorly constructed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/542 "2009-05-28T23:28:28Z")
This can only end in tears. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/543 "2009-05-28T23:31:21Z")
I have to admit, this is devolving more than usual. Hopefully **mswas** either recovers his equilibrium enough to engage in real debate or fully disengages, or this thread is going to have a continuing lifespan numbering in minutes. (Of course if **mswas** departs we might find ourselves with a bit of a shortage on the opposition side, but at least the thread death would be graceful.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/544 "2009-05-28T23:38:15Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I have to admit, this is devolving more than usual. Hopefully **mswas** either recovers his equilibrium enough to engage in real debate or fully disengages, or this thread is going to have a continuing lifespan numbering in minutes. The debate is over. I have answered every single question except the one about specific statistics that **Bryan Ekers** asked. I answered every one of them at least a dozen times and no new question has been asked in the past half a dozen pages or so. There is nothing here to debate, the debate is concluded. > [@](#): > > (Of course if **mswas** departs we might find ourselves with a bit of a shortage on the opposition side, but at least the thread death would be graceful.) Yes, but haranguing people out of the echo chamber was the entire point of the thread to begin with. 😉 I knew that going in. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/545 "2009-05-28T23:42:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The debate is over. I have answered every single question except the one about specific statistics that **Bryan Ekers** asked. I answered every one of them at least a dozen times and no new question has been asked in the past half a dozen pages or so. There is nothing here to debate, the debate is concluded. At least it ends like it began. Without a single rational argument against SSM that isn’t rooted in prejudice. > [@](#): > > Yes, but haranguing people out of the echo chamber was the entire point of the thread to begin with. 😉 I knew that going in. You are your own echo chamber. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/546 "2009-05-28T23:43:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, but haranguing people out of the echo chamber was the entire point of the thread to begin with. 😉 I strongly doubt that, and you’re one of the last people whose word I’d take as evidence. > [@mswas](#): > > I knew that going in. In which case, why did you even bother coming in? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/547 "2009-05-28T23:43:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > They are upset about SSM for the same reasons they were upset about anything in the sexual revolution. They are still fighting the sexual revolution, you think it’s over, that’s the rift between the two sides. They’re like those Japanese soldiers stuck on islands for 20 years still thinking World War II was still going on. When their hero, Ronald Reagan, was the first divorced President, it was a done deal. The old sexual revolution, I’m sorry to say, was pretty much exclusively heterosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/548 "2009-05-28T23:44:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Bryan Ekers** The question is asked and answered. It is harmful to the way of life of people whom you deem as irrelevant and socially deviant. Nothing more needs to be said. Well, my opinion of them is irrelevant (even assuming for the sake of argument that your assessment of that opinion is correct) but in any case: What form will this harm to their way of life take? Will these people suffer higher rates of suicide? Divorce? Unemployment? What signs should we be looking for? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/549 "2009-05-28T23:44:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The debate is over. I have answered every single question except the one about specific statistics that **Bryan Ekers** asked. I answered every one of them at least a dozen times and no new question has been asked in the past half a dozen pages or so. There is nothing here to debate, the debate is concluded. You just demonstrated the hollowness of the opposition, that’s all. that when it comes right down to it, they have nothing worthwhile to say. > [@mswas](#): > > Yes, but haranguing people out of the echo chamber was the entire point of the thread to begin with. 😉 I knew that going in. To the extent there is an “echo chamber”, it’s because only one side has any merit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/550 "2009-05-28T23:51:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, we do, it’s just not usually Christian belief, at least in this country. Teaching that Christian belief is wrong and evil would mark a major shift in western society. Are you aware that Christian belief was invoked in a major way to support slavery, segregation, and anti-miscegenation laws? that it was invoked in a major was to oppose sexual equality? Teaching that **certain interpretations of** Christian belief (even interpretations that historically were the majority) are evil would not be a major shift at all. > [@](#): > > I find it incredibly convenient how often moral objectivity favors the one invoking it. It’d be incredibly bizarre if it didn’t: it’d mean that people believed in an objective morality and were deliberately flouting it. OF COURSE folks believe they are acting in accordance with objective morality. Nothing convenient about it at all. Your claim that there’s a literal harm to a traditional culture is also absurd, I think. Culture exists as a shorthand for talking about the way that a bunch of people do things. It’s best understood as a verb, not a noun. It changes constantly. A change to a culture is not a harm, it’s just what culture does. Was the invention of the refrigerator a literal harm? The spread of sanitation in hospitals must have been a literal harm, since it changed the cultural norm of expecting many children and women to die during childbirth. Many changes happen to culture all the time. Some changes have negative impacts on human beings (the war on drugs, for example). Some changes have positive impacts on human beings (allowing SSM, for example). The harm to the culture is a fiction: it’s only the harm to human beings that we need to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/551 "2009-05-28T23:57:44Z")
When a gay married couple exchanges presents in front of a decorated pine tree, you’ll know the War on Christianity has merged with the War on Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/552 "2009-05-28T23:58:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The debate is over. I have answered every single question except the one about specific statistics that **Bryan Ekers** asked. I answered every one of them at least a dozen times and no new question has been asked in the past half a dozen pages or so. There is nothing here to debate, the debate is concluded. Nonsense - I just recently asked you for alternative explanations for the mysterious premonition of doom. Debate is ongoing, among those willing and able to engage in it. Now, if you mean that you now, before, and forever are in the state of “got nothin’” on this topic, well, that’s another matter. But you can’t fault us for asking, can you? > [@mswas](#): > > Yes, but haranguing people out of the echo chamber was the entire point of the thread to begin with. 😉 I knew that going in. That ain’t why _I’m_ here. But if you want to play the martyr… And **LHoD**? When **mswas** has been saying “culture”, it is shorthand for “Traditional Christian culture”, and means “the state of the Christians having things in accordance with their religious beliefs”. I’m fairly sure the reason for the _use_ of the word culture for this is because there is no constitutional separation of culture and state. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/553 "2009-05-29T00:03:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And **LHoD**? When **mswas** has been saying “culture”, it is shorthand for “Traditional Christian culture”, and means “the state of the Christians having things in accordance with their religious beliefs”. I’m fairly sure the reason for the _use_ of the word culture for this is because there is no constitutional separation of culture and state. Well, whatever–I certainly admit that there are a lot of people who will be, at least temporarily, upset by it. Certainly when white people were allowed to marry black people, a lot of folks were upset by it also. I even think those folks’ opinions should be considered. Just not very much. And acting as though this (or any other) aggregate opinion is sanctified under the term “culture” is just so much postermodern PC gobbledygook in my opinion: nothing about the term “culture,” whether you’re talking about Muslims who don’t want Valentine’s Day celebrated or Christians who don’t want SSM celebrated, is any more interesting than any other opinion held by a buncha folks. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/554 "2009-05-29T00:06:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And **LHoD**? When **mswas** has been saying “culture”, it is shorthand for “Traditional Christian culture”, and means “the state of the Christians having things in accordance with their religious beliefs”. Not quite; only a particular subset of Christians count; specifically those “traditional Christians”, which in turn are defined as “those Christians who oppose SSM”. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/555 "2009-05-29T02:05:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > But that’s not the argument. The argument is that immoral behavior is being called moral behavior. If that immoral behavior is actually considered not to be immoral than the system of morality that considers it immoral has its basis called into question, and thus, harm is done. Wrong. You can’t conclude that harm is done to others simply because a separate group has a different morality and behaves differently. Nobody is asking those who believe homosexuality is a sin to participate and do something they believe is immoral. Nobody is forcing them to change their beliefs. What’s being asked is that they allow others to have different beliefs and equal rights. What’s being asked is that they extend to others the same freedoms they claim for themselves. If a religion believed it was moral and serving God to sacrifice children on the alter every Sunday would it be doing real harm to stop them? Again, the harm is all in their perception, and not real harm at all. Nothing is impeding their ability to believe and worship as they choose by refusing to let them use their beliefs to harm others. > [@](#): > > Well by that token religious belief has no validity whatsoever. Completely false. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/556 "2009-05-29T02:34:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Only to the morons. More people stated clear understanding of my point than continue to have trouble understanding me. As this is the case, I am going to assume that you are just a poor listener. > > Since I am about to bow out of this thread. > > It’s not my fault you are a fucking moron. It is, however, your fault that you cannot be bothered to avoid direct insults to other posters. This is a Warning to stop this behavior. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/557 "2009-05-29T02:51:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s only a lie if you think that your opinion on what is moral is objective fact. Both sides argue that objective morality agrees with them. I find it incredibly convenient how often moral objectivity favors the one invoking it. The lie isn’t subjective morality. Nobody is demanding anyone abandon their belief about what is moral. The lie is that tradition and our culture of some Christian doctrine is objectively factual, which leads to the lie that SSM will somehow lead to the degradation of society, which in turns leads to an opposition of equal rights for fellow human beings. The idea that **their** morality is objectively correct and therefore takes precedence over concepts of morality that disagree is the\*\* lie\*\*. It’s not the supporters of SSM that are denying the rights of the opposition to believe as they will and live accordingly. It’s those who oppose it who are trying to impose thier morality as fact and thereby deny the rights of others. I’m not invoking moral objectivity. I’m invoking the rights of all people to find there own subjective morality without harming others, and to free from others trying to impose a false objective morality on them. There is real harm being done, but not by supporting SSM. By those opposing it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/558 "2009-05-29T03:01:22Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Wrong. You can’t conclude that harm is done to others simply because a separate group has a different morality and behaves differently. Especially because if doing so is sufficient justification for laws forbidding whatever that group finds offensive - you’ve basically come up with a justification to outlaw _ **everything** _. There’s very little if anything in the world that someone, somewhere isn’t offended by it. Clearly, we need a better standard than “it offends me !”; the one that comes to mind as most practical is objective harm. Which is why those attempts to say “if you can outlaw murder, why can’t you outlaw SSM ?!” don’t work. Murder ? There’s a dead body. Thievery ? My money is gone. SSM ? No objective harm. The objective harm here is on the part of those who are interfering with the freedom of others to marry as they choose. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/559 "2009-05-29T03:27:06Z")
But then again, the very concept of legalizing SSM may have just given **mswas** a coronary. So that’s objectively harmful. Get well soon **mswas**! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645/560 "2009-05-29T04:17:19Z")
**Euphonious Polemic** , you might want to be careful about dancing too gleefully around the “corpse” in Great Debates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-opponents-of-gay-marriage/497645.md?page=29)