I’m not sure what I expect Heaven to be specifically. But if I have compassion for, and can see the good in people who are indifferent to me, why should I expect less of my God? Does God exist for His own aggrandizement?
I accept heaven as being with/in God and Hell as being sepperated from God. It is our choice which way we want to go (free will and all). We right now on earth (owned or leased to Satan) are in a state of sepperation from God - this is our state of being represented by Adam and Eve taking that apple (I would have held out for more), they tryed to make it on their own (spirtually) and we are born in that position due to that ‘original sin’. We have an out because God loves us, but He will not make us come to Him - it is our choice to make.
God has given us totally free will, we are allowed to be totally away from him and try to make it on our own - this will eventually lead us to Hell - which is just eternal sepperation from God, it does not mean that one can’t achieve nervana <sp> on ones own (though I can’t see me making it this time around).
So not petty at all, but the ultimate in tough love, He loves us enought to let us free to do as we wish and is compasionate enough to accept us back whatever we have done whenever we ask, and wise enough never to force us either way.
Can anyone with a better grasp of Catholicism verify what I wrote in post #14?
Minor point, Kanicbird: That was DianaG’s post, not mine.
That’s a pretty profound misunderstanding of Christianity. Of course, it’s also common. It’s not a matter of who is “good” or “bad.” How would this even be measured? What activities make someone good or someone bad? Since everyone does both good and bad things, which ones do we use to judge someone?
Basic orthodoxy is that if you accept the need for Christ’s forgiveness and then try to live in accordance with His teachings, you will go to Heaven. Those who reject Christ will go to Hell. In general, if you follow His teachings, you will be “good” and thus go to heaven. However, it’s certainly conceivable that a non-believer can be "good, " too, but in Christian teaching this non-believer, no matter how many “good” works he has done, will go to Hell. Of course, our pastor has a good way of thinking about this. His thoughts are that since no human is responsible for who gets into Heaven we should not worry if others are going there or not. We are not the ones to judge.
As I asked above, how do you judge? The world is not easily divided between good people and bad people. I do things that are bad but I also do things that are good. Which ones count in the end?
Since everyone is a sinner, the foundation for your question is flawed. All people sin, not just those who go to Hell. It’s how you react to your sin that counts.
I am religious but not christian. IMHO, heaven is absolutely, totally, not a velvet-rope party. Either we all, as a species, get to heaven, or we don’t get there. Takes place here, in this realm. And as for life after death, you didn’t think you were only going to live this life, did you? You’re going to live all of them. You will experience every lifetime of every human. Part of the process of becoming one with God.
Reincarnation’s a moderately decent oversimplification. You’ll be reincarnated into a future you helped create.
Act to create heaven. You shall reap what you sow.
Yes, it is off the mark. There are guidelines of moral behavior and sin that stand apart from one’s own conscience. Anyone could search their own conscience and rationalize that they are in the clear, but that seems pretty self-serving!
If there’s a creator, don’y you think he’s got a way to figure this out? He’s supposed to be more knowledgable than we are, after all, which is why we’re supposed to leave judging people to him.
And this is vastly different than what I said, how? Longer winded, certainly, since I was brief given it’s not the thrust of the debate, but it’s not too far removed from “Suppose we’re right and there is a judgement day. Good people are going to heaven like we thought, and those who are bad don’t.” <snip>" I do believe that those who are good and moral (everyone, not just believers) will go to heaven." And not all Christian religions teach that non-believers go to hell, you realize.
Doesn’t the fact that there was no Adam and Eve kind of blow this out of the water?
And if we’re *born" with “original sin” how can it be our fault?
Shirley - From what I’ve been able to find, the average age for Religious in the US is 69. But in my local Dominican community, an order which wears a full habit and is very traditional, the average age is 37. For the last several years they’ve had more than 15 postulants per year.
According to the “Catholic Information Project”, put out by the US Catholic Bishops, the average age for US priests is 69. The average age at ordination is 36, so it’s not like they’re starting out just out of college. Of course the average age is older.
Your Question is invalid, there is no such fact.
Also it doesn’t matter who decided where humanity would exist, you may call them Harry and Rose for all I care.
OK this it the meat of your question. Even though it is called original sin, it is not really sin that a person commits. Humans exist in a spacetime sepperated from God, this was decided by the ‘parents’ of humanity a long time ago (Harry and Rose). They, for their own reasons thought it would be a good place to life and raise their children.
This is very much like a couple deciding to move to Red China because they think it would be helpful to their children. They are charged with the responsibility of deciding many things for their children and their children MUST live by their parents decisions.
It is the child’s fault that she was raised inside red China ? - NO,
Does that affect and limit her - YES,
Is that fair - NO
Is live fair - NO
My view is God created Man to exist w/ God (Heaven), but along the way man asked God to be left on his own to explore on his own, God complied.
God still loves us and wants to give us the opportunity to come back, but will not force it - again it is up to us, and we can stay sepperated from him if we desire.
As for you velvet rope people, you are not making any sense, God is only taking people who want to come to Him, by default people who want to come to Him have to beleive in Him.
Because not all “good” people will go to heaven. All Christians will go to heaven. There is a difference.
Anyway, everyone has sinned, whether it’s getting an abortion, lusting after a woman in your heart (yeah, I’m looking at you, Jimmy Carter), or whatever. Your question still implies a basic misunderstanding of Christianity. Abortion is no more a barrier to heaven than any other sin.
Any Christian denomination that so teaches is outside of the orthodox belief of Christianity.
Well off the top of my head I can think of 144,000 non-christians mentioned in the book of Revelation that will not go to hell.
I am certain that there are a number of Christians who teach that God will have mercy on any number of non-Christians.
What othodoxy are you speaking of, and where can I read moe fo it?