# A Question for Roman Catholics **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943 "2011-01-09T02:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/41 "2011-01-10T10:44:14Z")
Just a question: why do people in the US say Roman Catholics? Isnt Catholicism necessarily Roman? ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/42 "2011-01-10T11:02:32Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Just a question: why do people in the US say Roman Catholics? Isnt Catholicism necessarily Roman? Nope. One can be Eastern Orthodox Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/43 "2011-01-10T11:04:31Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Nope. One can be Eastern Orthodox Catholic. Ha it must be a language diff, we call Orthodoxes simply Orthodoxes here. Do you know if it’s a specific US thing or if it’s the same in GB’s English too? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/44 "2011-01-10T11:09:50Z")
Probably best to look at the Catechisms: > [@](#): > > 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. > [@](#): > > 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. > [@](#): > > 1280 Baptism imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign, the character, which consecrates the baptized person for Christian worship. Because of the character Baptism cannot be repeated (cf. DS 1609 and DS 1624). > [@](#): > > 1246 "Every person not yet baptized and only such a person is able to be baptized."46 So, it’s pretty clear that when someone dies without being baptized, the correct approach is to hope for the best. In addition, the baptism of someone who has already been baptised is invalid by Catholic teaching. > **[Catechism of the Catholic Church](https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM)** ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/45 "2011-01-10T12:22:38Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Just a question: why do people in the US say Roman Catholics? Isnt Catholicism necessarily Roman? That’s not an American thing. There are lots of (well, at least several) other churches around that use the term “Catholic” for themselves - among them, incidentally, the Church of England, which is why allegiance to the Catholic Church shows up in the Anglican creed. The term “Catholic” is Greek and means universal, a particular claim of universality made by a church. That’s why the one in Rome is correctly called, also in Europe, the Roman Catholic Church. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/46 "2011-01-10T12:33:50Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > That’s not an American thing. There are lots of (well, at least several) other churches around that use the term “Catholic” for themselves - among them, incidentally, the Church of England, which is why allegiance to the Catholic Church shows up in the Anglican creed. The term “Catholic” is Greek and means universal, a particular claim of universality made by a church. That’s why the one in Rome is correctly called, also in Europe, the Roman Catholic Church. There is also a distinction between big-C Catholic churches and small-c catholic churches. All big-C churches consider themselves part of the small-c catholic church, but some churches (for instance most Lutherans) consider themselves part of the small-c catholic church but not the big-C one. ---
**Author:** ![Mornac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Mornac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mornac)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/47 "2011-01-10T13:23:31Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Ha it must be a language diff, we call Orthodoxes simply Orthodoxes here. Do you know if it’s a specific US thing or if it’s the same in GB’s English too? –There are Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics - two different things. Eastern Rite Catholics are in Communion with Rome and they practice different rites. Eastern Orthodox practice different rites but they have bishops who are ouit of Communion with Rome. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/48 "2011-01-10T13:32:29Z")
The old folks in my family (Irish Catholic) used to spin a lot of yarns based upon the urgency of priests running to get to a person before they died, or a mid-wife trying to get a still-born child to “take three breaths” so he/she could be baptized. The basis of all of these stories was the absolute nature of death, and the definite implication of it being “too late.” This guy sounds like he was completely out of line on all counts. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/49 "2011-01-10T13:43:57Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > I wonder, has anyone ever baptized him/herself if no one else was available and death was imminent? Also, in a pinch, has something other than water been used? It seems like most Christians at least nowadays feel that the intent is more important than the specific ritual? In a sense, the priest does this at every mass via the washing of the hands. “Lord wash away my inequities, and cleanse me of my sins.” However, this is also just a good hygienic practice prior to serving JC’s transubstantiated body and blood up to the teeming hundreds. But one of the symbolic purposes of this is to acknowledge that even the priest is contaminated by sin and must ritually purify his hands prior to touching the bread that will become the flesh of Christ in just a few moments. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/50 "2011-01-10T13:45:45Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Deacons go through several years of schooling and are officially ordained by, I think, a bishop and are only men. There are deaconesses, deacons are mostly men but it’s not a requirement. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/51 "2011-01-10T13:52:25Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Ha it must be a language diff, we call Orthodoxes simply Orthodoxes here. Do you know if it’s a specific US thing or if it’s the same in GB’s English too? The Schism of 1054 created separate Churches that agree on most fundamental tenets but, well… they just couldn’t agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/52 "2011-01-10T13:59:49Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > > > Just a question: why do people in the US say Roman Catholics? Isnt Catholicism necessarily Roman? > > Nope. One can be Eastern Orthodox Catholic. Not quite. There are a number of “rites” in the Catholic church. All are under the Pope, but there are considerable differences in practices and liturgy. Examples are Byzantine and Coptic, as well as Roman. Some (such as the Byzantine rite) are closely related to the Orthodox churches, but the difference is that all of the Orthodox churches reject the primacy of the Pope (in other words, they are technically not Catholic). People in the US generally speak of Roman Catholic as though it were the sum total, not realizing that it is just one branch of the church the Pope leads, although it is the largest, by far, in this part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/53 "2011-01-10T14:02:31Z")
Or, rephrasing what **Cheshire Human** said, in “Roman Catholic” the “Roman” part doesn’t refer to the boss living in Rome, but to a specific Ritual of the Mass, whereas the “Catholic” part is the actual denomination. So, anybody who accepts the guy in white as Pontifex is denominationally Catholic, no matter what Ritual (s)he uses. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/54 "2011-01-10T14:15:59Z")
A decent article about my previous post: [http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic\_rites\_and\_churches.htm](http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/55 "2011-01-10T14:20:38Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > There are deaconesses, deacons are mostly men but it’s not a requirement. Not true at all. The Code of Canon Law, Can. 1024, provides, “Only a baptized man can validly receive sacred ordination.” In the Catholic Church, only a man may be ordained a deacon, priest, or bishop. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/56 "2011-01-10T14:27:08Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Deacons go through several years of schooling and are officially ordained by, I think, a bishop and are only men. Correct. A bishop is the minister of the sacrament of Holy Orders. A man must be at least 23 years old to be ordained as a transitional deacon (that is, one who is destined for the priesthood). A permanent deacon must be at least 25 if unmarried. If married, he must be at least 35 and have the consent of his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/57 "2011-01-10T14:32:57Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Or, rephrasing what **Cheshire Human** said, in “Roman Catholic” the “Roman” part doesn’t refer to the boss living in Rome, but to a specific Ritual of the Mass, whereas the “Catholic” part is the actual denomination. So, anybody who accepts the guy in white as Pontifex is denominationally Catholic, no matter what Ritual (s)he uses. But aren’t there people who call themselves “Catholic” who don’t recognize Rome? I have known people who professed to be “non-papal Catholics.” Would they still be “Roman” in that sense? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/58 "2011-01-10T14:47:47Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > I wonder, has anyone ever baptized him/herself if no one else was available and death was imminent? Also, in a pinch, has something other than water been used? It seems like most Christians at least nowadays feel that the intent is more important than the specific ritual? The ritual would be unnecessary according Catholic dogma, justing wanting the Baptism is sufficient: > [@](#): > > 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. > **[Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText](https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM)** ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/59 "2011-01-10T15:05:37Z")
> [@Skara\_Brae](#): > > But aren’t there people who call themselves “Catholic” who don’t recognize Rome? I have known people who professed to be “non-papal Catholics.” Would they still be “Roman” in that sense? The Anglican Communion, including the Church of England, adheres to the Nicene Creed, which includes, [QUOTE=English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC)] We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. [/QUOTE] While Anglicans would not describe themselves as “Catholics”, they do believe that they belong to the “Catholic Church”, of which the “Roman Catholic Church” headed by the Pope is just one branch, and the Anglican Communion is another. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943/60 "2011-01-10T16:10:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. A bishop is the minister of the sacrament of Holy Orders. A man must be at least 23 years old to be ordained as a transitional deacon (that is, one who is destined for the priesthood). A permanent deacon must be at least 25 if unmarried. If married, he must be at least 35 and have the consent of his wife. I have a female friend, a devout Roman Catholic, who regularly carries communion to people in the hospital. I don’t know whetehr she’d be referred to as a Lay Minister, but she certainly gives Holy Communion to people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-roman-catholics/566943.md?page=4)