# A question for those that call themselves "Christian" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219 "2017-03-02T17:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/21 "2017-03-02T20:13:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [In a post in another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20037906&postcount=14) someone said , and I ask how one can tell the difference? What exactly defines one as a “True Christian”, and not one in name only? > I can only ask, but it would be nice if self-designated non Christians waited a bit before jumping in. “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” -Romans 10:9 Whether one “truly” believes that to the satisfaction of God is unknowable to others and so is immaterial to whether one is a “true” Christian. Everything else is relevant to whether one is a “good” or “bad” Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/22 "2017-03-02T20:21:49Z")
I’m a Christian. I’m a Catholic. I’m not a cradle Catholic (I’m an adult convert and was not baptized as an infant). I probably qualify as “born again” but it isn’t much of a concept within the Catholic church, it’s something Evangelical, Fundamentalist, and Baptist churches emphasize, along with some others – it’s essentially a ritual adult acceptance of the tenets of Christianity, even if you were raised in that faith. I don’t care at all how other people define themselves or what name they put on themselves or what they “truly” believe. It is none of my business. I define myself as a Catholic Christian because I am in all technical and spiritual senses a Catholic (although hardliner conservative Catholics might have a different opinion about me, screw them, it’s none of their business). From an insider’s perspective as well as an outsider’s, there is really no way to discern beyond self-identification. Which might be why this question comes up so often. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/23 "2017-03-02T20:25:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Rather than hijacking that thread, he started a new one, as apparently, the question has not been answered to the satisfaction of many. Because the 1001st thread _will_ answer it, but the other 1000 threads didnt?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/24 "2017-03-02T20:44:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because the 1001st thread _will_ answer it, but the other 1000 threads didnt?:dubious: Some of the great questions of our time will continue to struggle to find answers regardless of how many times they are asked. Let’s not question the motives of an OP as the reason for the thread is stated. If you wish to participate in the topic of the thread, feel free. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/25 "2017-03-02T22:44:19Z")
Speaking for me personally - I go by what people identify as. If someone says they are a Christian, there’s no way for me to prove they’re not. Frankly there’s very little reason for me to _care_ if they’re not. So, to take an extreme example: Fred Phelps. He claimed to be Christian. In my opinion, if he was a Christian, he was a very poor one and held profoundly problematic and distasteful ideas about who Christ was. And, I would say that most people who identify as non-Christians are, in fact, more Christ-like than Fred Phelps was. But I cannot say he was not a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/26 "2017-03-02T23:11:01Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I suppose the harder question is for the people who want to follow the example and teachings of Jesus but aren’t convinced he was a god, or that a god even exists. I’d call them Christians too, but YMMV. That would be like, for example, Thomas Jefferson, who considered Jesus a great moral teacher but not divine. Personally, I wouldn’t call him a Christian. I’m not one, but in my opinion, a Christian is someone who accepts that Jesus was divine and wants to do things that would please him. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The core seems to be the belief in accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. All else is doctrine or window dressing. What does that mean? Saving you from what? Hell? If a person doesn’t believe in hell, can he still be a Christian? Or am I misunderstanding what “savior” means? Christians always use the word but I’m not sure they all mean the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/27 "2017-03-02T23:31:34Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > What does that mean? Saving you from what? Hell? If a person doesn’t believe in hell, can he still be a Christian? > > Or am I misunderstanding what “savior” means? Christians always use the word but I’m not sure they all mean the same thing. Hell is many things, in some cases it is just a existence where Gods Grace is not upon you, and you know that and know it’s your fault. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/28 "2017-03-03T07:24:55Z")
Given the quote, it would basically be saying that a lot of these people are “cultural Christians.” They don’t adhere much to the doctrines of their church, but call themselves Christians because that’s what you’re supposed to be. You can’t tell for sure from the outside, but there are signs. The Bible itself has some “fruits of the Spirit” that give the characteristics of someone who follows Christian doctrine. The main one I see is hatefulness. Other things are just whether they commit obvious sins without any sign of feeling bad about it. That guy who says he’s a Christian but cheats on his wife? Not a true Christian. I agree that the way we let people get away with it obvious sins in our society shows we’re not all that Christian. And I’m not counting freedom of religion stuff. I mean we have a society entirely run by greed. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/29 "2017-03-03T07:39:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Given the quote, it would basically be saying that a lot of these people are “cultural Christians.” They don’t adhere much to the doctrines of their church, but call themselves Christians because that’s what you’re supposed to be. Good observation. I live in Romania, where over 90% of the people call themselves Christians but most of them do not go to church regularly and haven’t read the Bible. I expect the situation is more or less similar in other countries in Eastern Europe and in Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/30 "2017-03-03T08:49:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes - born again = trusting in Christ as Savior alone, not on the basis of works of atonement, and as the delineation, those that are not born again, are not true “Christians.” > > I will be the first to say that I do not understand Catholic theology well (since I know that definition means that penance or confession aren’t going to get salvation) and that my definition probably excludes a lot of Catholics, and I do know that has apparently long been an issue of heated contention between Catholics and Protestants/other non-Catholics. Maybe might exclude some Anglicans or Episcopalians, and almost certainly excludes most if not all Universalists. No, the idea that “Catholics believe you must do good works to be saved” is Protestant. A man alone cannot save himself, but only accept the Divine Mercy. What we do believe in relation to good works is this: that if you truly believe, then you see other people as your brothers and sisters (never mind that some of them are assholes - those whose biological family doesn’t include one, congratulations), and that belief will reflect in good works. Mind you: since we also believe that you should do those works discreetely unless the publicity will be helpful in and of itself, it follows that only because someone’s good works aren’t visible that doesn’t mean there is none. Crap like the selling of indulgencies was supposed to act as a form of penance; since often the cost was akin to fining 5 dollars to a man who makes thousands in one hour, the purpose got lost quite rapidly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/31 "2017-03-03T11:39:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Since I was the person who made the original comment: > > I would define a Christian as a born-again believer who has accepted Christ as Savior, and their life should evidence that, by the way they live. The explanation perhaps could be much longer than that but I think that suffices. Many Americans call themselves “Christian” but don’t abide by that. > > I realize that a “No True Scotsman” criticism could easily apply and it’s not easy to defend or oppose. However, also, when people say that America is 85% Christian, I don’t think that is really evidenced by the society. To use a political analogy, if someone said that the American electorate were 85% Democratic, but Republicans kept winning a lot of elections, you might say “Well surely some of those ‘Democrats’ aren’t true Democrats.” (Avoiding analogies about Electoral College or gerrymandering, which would really be taking the analogy too far.) > [@Velocity](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Just to clarify(not criticizing), what exactly do you mean by “born again”, and do you see those that are not “born again” by that definition as non-Christian? > > Yes - born again = trusting in Christ as Savior alone, not on the basis of works of atonement, and as the delineation, those that are not born again, are not true “Christians.” > > I will be the first to say that I do not understand Catholic theology well (since I know that definition means that penance or confession aren’t going to get salvation) and that my definition probably excludes a lot of Catholics, and I do know that has apparently long been an issue of heated contention between Catholics and Protestants/other non-Catholics. Maybe might exclude some Anglicans or Episcopalians, and almost certainly excludes most if not all Universalists. An interesting concept, in that it not only excludes Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox Christians, but relies on a definition that is barely a couple of hundred years old, excluding the vast number of people generally identified as Christian over the last couple of thousand years. (For that matter, the whole usage of the phrase “born again” goes back barely 50 years. Some concept of being born again is clearly included in Christian Scripture–and is held by the aforementioned Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox, but as a catchphrase to identify who is “really” Christian, it was not present as recently as the 1950s.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/32 "2017-03-03T12:35:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > For that matter, the whole usage of the phrase “born again” goes back barely 50 years. Actually the phrase “born again” in English goes back much further than that - all the way to the translators of the King James version. See John 3.3. And the same phrase in the Gospel is expressing just what you say - only those who are born again can see the Kingdom of God. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/33 "2017-03-03T12:48:26Z")
Reading this thread to see if Christian Bale replies. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/34 "2017-03-03T14:43:55Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > What does that mean? Saving you from what? Hell? If a person doesn’t believe in hell, can he still be a Christian? > > Or am I misunderstanding what “savior” means? Christians always use the word but I’m not sure they all mean the same thing. > [@John 3:16-21](#): > > 16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. 21 But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be plainly evident that his deeds have been done in God. In Christian parlance, “saved” means “saved from death to have eternal life instead”. Note that “faith” and “works” are not dichotomous. One’s beliefs are demonstrated by one’s works. ---
**Author:** ![jacobson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@jacobson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobson)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/35 "2017-03-03T14:46:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [In a post in another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20037906&postcount=14) someone said , and I ask how one can tell the difference? What exactly defines one as a “True Christian”, and not one in name only? > I can only ask, but it would be nice if self-designated non Christians waited a bit before jumping in. In my opinion and from reading the Bibles message a Christian is a person who Follows all the teachings of Jesus. He said I give you one commandment;“That you love onea another, also” Said to love your enemies, return good for evil, Don’t judge, he didn’t day to go to church or pray, he did tell them how to pray"In secret go to your room, close the door and pray to your father in SECRET, he who hears in secret will answer in secret’ Jesus said in answer To being told he Blasphemed" WHY DO YOU SAY I BLASPHEME BECAUSE I CALL GOD MT FATHER\< WHEB YOUR FATHERS DID?In John 10 ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/36 "2017-03-03T14:47:54Z")
The concept of a “true” Christian is, like the “true Scotsman”, nothing more than an attempt to draw a line favorable to one’s viewpoint on something. It is very unlikely that I would say of myself, “I’m a Christian, but not a True Christian.” But different groups will have different reasons for trying to assert that they are “true Christians” and those not meeting their self-imposed criteria are not. To me, personally, a truly Christian person is one who behaves as a Christian should behave, and the more like that they behave, the more truly Christian their behavior is. Thus, I do not attempt to anoint myself or others with some sort of touchstone to say of us, “We are TRUE Christians.” But it matters not to me what you claim. If your behavior doesn’t follow through on that claim, then your actions are not truly Christian in nature. There are spiritual components as well as moral components. **I** do not think that being Christian in nature requires being “born again”, as that is used by **Velocity**. So, as a practicing Episcopalian, I don’t see myself as not truly Christian in my behavior simply because I haven’t undergone some magical adult transformation of my thinking processes, memorialized with a deep-water baptism. And I have seen all too many “true Christians” (self-professed) who’s behaviors are anything but, despite the fact that they have had a very strong adult “rebirth” of the acceptance of Jesus as their Savior. And I honestly do not know what to do about various sects who consider themselves at least nominally “Christian”, who nevertheless would not be able to recite the Nicene Creed without seriously perjuring themselves. All of which simply means that I generally speaking don’t bother to try and worry about whether or not a person is a “true Christian”, or even is acting “truly Christian.” I worry most about myself, and if **I** am acting as I believe a Christian should act, then I am satisfied. ---
**Author:** ![jacobson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@jacobson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobson)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/37 "2017-03-03T14:54:30Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I think it has to center more on beliefs than conduct. A bad person who believes Jesus is the son of god and died and was resurrected (or whatever they believe) is still a Christian. In my (outsider’s) view, you don’t have to go to church or even try to live a moral life to be a Christian. If you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, you are a Christian. I suppose the harder question is for the people who want to follow the example and teachings of Jesus but aren’t convinced he was a god, or that a god even exists. I’d call them Christians too, but YMMV. According to the Psamist 81 in RcC version 82 in KJ versionTHE salmist quote"D I said you areg ods and sons OF the most hugh" jOHN TELLS THIS IS WHY JESUS CALLED GOD HIS FATHER. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/38 "2017-03-03T14:58:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Hell is many things, in some cases it is just a existence where Gods Grace is not upon you, and you know that and know it’s your fault. Does “Gods Grace is not upon you” have an actual meaning? I’m really not trying to be obtuse, that just sounds like babble to me. ---
**Author:** ![jacobson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@jacobson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobson)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/39 "2017-03-03T15:00:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually the phrase “born again” in English goes back much further than that - all the way to the translators of the King James version. See John 3.3. > > And the same phrase in the Gospel is expressing just what you say - only those who are born again can see the Kingdom of God. > > Regards, > Shodan According to the Bible Jesus said ;“not he who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my father” ---
**Author:** ![jacobson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@jacobson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobson)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/40 "2017-03-03T15:02:13Z")
> [@jacobson](#): > > According to the Psamist 81 in RcC version 82 in KJ versionTHE salmist quote"D I said you areg ods and sons OF the most hugh" jOHN TELLS THIS IS WHY JESUS CALLED GOD HIS FATHER. I made a typo the word was gods and sons of the most high. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219.md?page=3)