# A question for those who lean left... **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 27, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287 "2010-09-27T23:34:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/41 "2010-09-28T19:46:05Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I think the majority of Democratic losses can be attributed to the sluggish economy and the party’s utter inability to form a coherent message in the face of shameless pandering and dishonesty by the opposition. Death panels and Birth certificates, feh. That’s pretty much what I think. However, assuming that the Democrats take big hits in the House and Senate in November, the political conventional wisdom will be that it was because Obama’s and his party’s policies were far too liberal for the American public. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I agree perfectly . . . but that raises an interesting strategic question for 2012. Should the left-progressive wing try its own “Tea Party” movement to take control from the established Dem leadership? In all probability, that would only produce left-insurgent nominees who would have little chance in the general election – just as with most Tea Party nominees this year. But if the left-progressive wing does not try to take control, what can we expect out of a post-2012 Congress or WH but more of the same? It is a puzzlement. [/QUOTE] And where exactly is this “left-progressive wing” you speak of? I have yet to see any significant left-wing equivalent of the Tea Party holding large public rallies and constantly prodding the Administration and Congress from the left. Also, who could viably challenge Obama from the left? The situation in the Democratic Party is not like 1979 when liberals could turn to Ted Kennedy or even Jerry Brown when they became with disappointed by Carter’s ineffectualness. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/42 "2010-09-28T20:12:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If the GOP does not take over the Senate, will you concede that the Obama Administration has not moved far enough to the left? No. But, if the Democrats were to increase their majority, then I might concede that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/43 "2010-09-28T20:13:59Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > And where exactly is this “left-progressive wing” you speak of? I have yet to see any significant left-wing equivalent of the Tea Party holding large public rallies and constantly prodding the Administration and Congress from the left. Also, who could viably challenge Obama from the left? The situation in the Democratic Party is not like 1979 when liberals could turn to Ted Kennedy or even Jerry Brown when they became with disappointed by Carter’s ineffectualness. No, it isn’t. The highest-profile progressive **in** the Democratic Party is Dennis Kucinich (Bernie Sanders being an independent). And there’s the [Congressional Progressive Caucus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Progressive_Caucus) (all Dems save Sanders). But, really, the left-progressive faction of politically interested Americans is sort of half in the party, half out of it (Greens, Socialists, Ralph Nader, unorganized lefties, etc.). However, taking that into account, there are a lot more of them than you might think. In the [Pew Political Typology,](http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=949) they would be included under the heading of “Liberal” (although they probably don’t make up that whole group) – 17% of population, 19% of registered voters – a group that **nearly doubled** between 1999 and 2005. (The next update of the study, BTW, is to be done at the end of this year and released early 2011.) The Disadvantaged Democrats are 10%/10%, and while they might have an old-fashioned social outlook they probably can be relied on to take that left-progressive side on economic issues. And I think the left-progressives have the best chance **in the long run** of picking up the Disaffected vote, if not the Bystander vote. See also the Center for American Progress [“State of American Political Ideology, 2009”](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/03/political_ideology.html) study. > [@](#): > > For years, traditional public opinion polling has broken down ideology into three distinct groupings: liberal, moderate, and conservative. Based on this categorization, there has been remarkable stability in ideological orientation, with roughly one-fifth of Americans identifying themselves as “liberal” and about four in 10 classifying themselves as “moderate” > or ”conservative,” respectively, according to Gallup polling from 1992 to 2008. > > In this study, however, the electorate is broken down using a more expansive five-point scale of political ideology that reflects the variety of approaches people ascribe to today. Employing this more calibrated measure, 34 percent of the country identifies as “conservative,” 29 percent as “moderate,” **15 percent as “liberal,” 16 percent as “progressive,”** and 2 percent as “libertarian.” After moderates are asked which approach they lean toward, the overall ideological breakdown of the country divides into fairly neat left and right groupings, with **47 percent of Americans identifying as progressive or liberal** and 48 percent as conservative or libertarian. The rest are unsure or scattered among moderate and other approaches. Powerful base, if ever it can be properly mobilized. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/44 "2010-09-28T20:17:21Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > > If the GOP does not take over the Senate, will you concede that the Obama Administration has not moved far enough to the left? > > No. But, if the Democrats were to increase their majority, then I might concede that. So this is what you thought in 2006 and 2008? Do you really believe that the political “center”, if you will, moves so dramatically in such a short time period? I guess if you suppose that people truly vote predominantly based on political ideology that might make sense. But even then it seems very odd that folks ideologies change so dramatically so quickly. Seem rather more likely that outside of the 25-30% on each end the center doesn’t give two shits about political philosophy and just votes based on how the country is doing, and which party is in control. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/45 "2010-09-28T20:30:12Z")
No. The Obama WH been center-right on domestic issues and continued Bush’s far-right foreign policy. So, to say that he is too far left would be absurd, since he is not even left of center. As for what the populace thinks, I would say that, \*despite \*an enormous propaganda campaign by the right-wing, most Americans still do not consider Obama too far left. Now, the Democrats may lose the House, and that would indicate a (well-justified) disgust with most of the party. But note that people’s opinions of Democrats are rock bottom and even lower for Republicans. There is only two ways the country can go in the next few years. Toward truly radical reform of our socioeconomic structure, or a descent into all out fascism. The Glenn Becks are doing their best to stretch the Overton Window in their preferred direction. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/46 "2010-09-28T21:30:46Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > > [@CandidGamera](#): > > > > I think the majority of Democratic losses can be attributed to the sluggish economy and the party’s utter inability to form a coherent message in the face of shameless pandering and dishonesty by the opposition. Death panels and Birth certificates, feh. > > That’s pretty much what I think. However, assuming that the Democrats take big hits in the House and Senate in November, the political conventional wisdom will be that it was because Obama’s and his party’s policies were far too liberal for the American public. Why? When the Democrats made big gains in 2006 and 2008, was there any talk that the Republicans’ policies were too conservative? Has there been any effort or suggestion that they moderate their views more toward the center? If anything, they’ve moved to the right, digging their foxholes a little deeper and yelling a little louder; but it’s the same message they’ve been campaigning on for my whole life. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/47 "2010-09-28T23:54:54Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > > > There were far left policies enacted? I must not have seen the news that day. > > The health care bill, for one. No sensible Republican would ever think of proposing anything like it. I hope it isn’t snarky to ask the relative rare clueful Dopers to include an appropriate emoticon when posting satire. (For those not in on the joke, Nixon’s plan, rejected by Demos 36 years ago as not-liberal-enough, was _much more_ liberal than the plan now rejected by almost the entire GOP as too liberal! Even in the 1990’s GOP was proposing plans at least as liberal as this one.) OP’s question itself is too flawed to bother answering… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/48 "2010-09-29T01:40:18Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Psst. I’m pretty sure Ludovic knows all that Woosh! Dang, and I thought I had a perfectly operational irony meter. **SanDiegoTim** : You appear to have some misconceptions about US politics. Elections swing to a large extent on the basis of the economy, incumbency and a standard midterm loss by the governing party. This has been shown statistically by [Ray Fair](http://fairmodel.econ.yale.edu/vote2008/index2.htm) and others. The stuff they jabber about on TV might swing the vote by a couple percentage points. It’s kind of sad, but unfortunately most reporters shy away from numeracy. Lest you be wary of liberal bias, here’s what The Economist has to say about Obama’s presidency. The Economist is considered a conservative magazine in Europe, though admittedly some argue that it is left of center in the US: > [@This week's Economist](#): > > Mr Obama has consistently made it clear he favours a mixed capitalist economy. The big incursion of the state into finance took place on his Republican predecessor’s watch. And although he doubtless went further than a McCain administration would have done to help GM and Chrysler survive, he has stuck to his pledge to return them quickly to private ownership. He used this year’s state-of-the-union message to commit himself to helping corporate America double its exports, and has appointed a council to propose ideas for promoting more innovation (though, says one member, “The administration is doing more talking than listening, and several of us are already worried we’ve been suckered into a PR exercise.”) The idea that the Obama admin has been especially radical is silly. Conservatives trot this argument out _during every Democratic Presidency since Roosevelt_. There’s always a fat-cat backed movement that makes its way out of the woodwork purporting to be grass roots that consists of warmed over nativism, empty sentimentality about the consititution, and a motley collection of conspiracy theories. The Liberty League flourished under Roosevelt, John Kennedy was accused of treason(!) by the Birchers and Clinton was accused of causing about 60 people to die prematurely. Now it’s the Tea Party’s turn. Ugly, nutty stuff. [Cite: Old Whine in New Bottles](http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/08/history-of-the-tea-party). Smart consumers of information learn to ID those who consistently make claims that fall apart under scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/49 "2010-09-29T02:34:55Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > . . . John Kennedy was accused of treason(!) by the Birchers . . . Many Birchers thought **Eisenhower** was a Communist. (See [_Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus,_](http://www.amazon.com/Before-Storm-Goldwater-Unmaking-Consensus/dp/080902859X) by Rick Perlstein.) ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/50 "2010-09-29T17:22:35Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > > > Psst. I’m pretty sure Ludovic knows all that > > Woosh! Dang, and I thought I had a perfectly operational irony meter. It’s not your fault. Today’s political realities put a lot of wear and tear on the ol’ irony meter. It’s likely to break down every so often. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/51 "2010-09-29T17:37:38Z")
It appears that the president, vice president, and a former Democratic presidential nominee agree with most of the posters to this thread (and its political siblings): anyone voting against the Dems has either been swayed by campaign slogans or they’re just too stupid to know what they’re doing. [Cite](http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/29/rollins.democrats.voters/index.html?hpt=T2) The thing that remains certain is that liberals are always correct and there is no legitimate reason for dissenting political beliefs or points of view. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/52 "2010-09-29T17:46:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The thing that remains certain is that liberals are always correct and there is no legitimate reason for dissenting political beliefs or points of view. I would be the first to concede we don’t have a perfect record. But we are way ahead of whoever is in second place. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/53 "2010-09-29T17:58:55Z")
Case in point. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/54 "2010-09-29T18:05:30Z")
Look! Hippies fucking in the mud! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/55 "2010-09-29T18:24:06Z")
Nah, most of 'em can’t do that anymore (at least not without Viagra or Replens :D). Whether this is due to past drug use or the passing of the years is anyone’s guess, but these days the former mud-fuckers have either come to their senses and become more conservative, or they’re voting for Obama, et al. and looking down their noses at anyone who doesn’t share their views politically. So we’re still back to where we started, which is that Democrats and liberals believe - and I think they believe it with all their heart and soul - that they are simply smarter than everyone else. This self-deceit would be not only laughable but tolerable if not for the fact that they are so quick to use their self-perceived superiority as the basis for hatred and insults toward anyone who disagrees with them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/56 "2010-09-29T18:26:32Z")
How many conservatives were saying _“We went too far to the right. We need to pull back to the center to win back the voters.”_ in 2008? No, the main line was _“The voters rejected us because we didn’t follow our principles. We didn’t go far enough to the right.”_ And that’s what liberals will say if they lose influence in 2012. (I say influence because I don’t feel liberals really have power. Obama is no liberal and has never claimed to be one.) The liberal wing will move further to the left. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/57 "2010-09-29T18:37:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nah, most of 'em can’t do that anymore (at least not without Viagra or Replens :D). Whether this is due to past drug use or the passing of the years is anyone’s guess, but these days the former mud-fuckers have either come to their senses and become more conservative, or they’re voting for Obama, et al. and looking down their noses at anyone who doesn’t share their views politically. > > So we’re still back to where we started, which is that Democrats and liberals believe - and I think they believe it with all their heart and soul - that they are simply smarter than everyone else. This self-deceit would be not only laughable but tolerable if not for the fact that they are so quick to use their self-perceived superiority as the basis for hatred and insults toward anyone who disagrees with them. This is the ugly truth of the modern Republican Party - they court the stupid vote. Do you honestly think Barack Obama was born in Kenya? Of course not - you’re intelligent and no intelligent person would believe that. So why do people keep saying it - even people who are themselves smart enough to know it’s not true? Because they know that stupid people will believe stupid things. And the Republican Party has a policy of telling stupid people lies that will get them to vote Republican - Barack Obama was born in Kenya, gay people want to marry dogs, atheists want to abolish Christmas, Mexicans want to kill your family. Democrats have their flaws. But at least they don’t pander to ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/58 "2010-09-29T19:08:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So we’re still back to where we started, which is that Democrats and liberals believe - and I think they believe it with all their heart and soul - that they are simply smarter than everyone else. Yes, perhaps, it is a sound general rule that: Liberals think conservatives are stupid. Conservatives think liberals are evil. I mention this pair of truisms mainly because, for some reason, a lot of people seem to get it exactly backward, and I see it given as, “Liberals think conservatives are evil. Conservatives think liberals are stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/59 "2010-09-29T19:36:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It appears that the president, vice president, and a former Democratic presidential nominee agree with most of the posters to this thread (and its political siblings): anyone voting against the Dems has either been swayed by campaign slogans or they’re just too stupid to know what they’re doing. > > [Cite](http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/29/rollins.democrats.voters/index.html?hpt=T2) > > The thing that remains certain is that liberals are always correct and there is no legitimate reason for dissenting political beliefs or points of view. Wow. That cite doesn’t say anything like what you claim it does. It’s an opinion piece, for one. Two, Obama called Republicans “irresponsible”, not stupid. Maybe you will answer the question, since none of the other righties in the thread have. **Did the GOP losses in 2006 and 2008 mean that the Republican party had gone too far to the right for the American people?** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287/60 "2010-09-29T20:00:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So we’re still back to where we started, which is that Democrats and liberals believe - and I think they believe it with all their heart and soul - that they are simply smarter than everyone else. [And, actually, there may be something to such a belief – with qualifications.](http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=945) > [@](#): > > Liberals have the highest education level of any typology group. 49% are college graduates and 26% have some postgraduate education. But the Enterprisers also include a relatively high percentage of college graduates (46%), although fewer Enterprisers than Liberals have attended graduate school (14%). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-who-lean-left/555287.md?page=4)