# A Question for US Bankers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 19, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689 "2010-04-19T23:58:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/21 "2010-04-20T17:13:52Z")
> [@Wilbo523](#): > > Why are you going to the trouble of opening a US bank account and wiring money from UAE, for Apple products? > > That seems a bit over the top, just for a few points on the exchange rate. Have your friend send you the money via PayPal to your own account CDN account. Go to the US Apple store buy the products and ship them to him. > > Why the need for the extra layers of complexity? As I said before the miniscule variation on exchange rates can’t be bothering your friend…he’s so eager to get these amazing Apple products he’s having a friend ship them half way around the world. This is what I’d probably do, too, except I’d use VISA because they offer some insurances (especially if you can pre-clear the transaction with them as **Spoons** suggests). I think another problem you haven’t really addressed is customs, though - if you tell them what you’re going to the US to do, they might have a problem with it. It seems like you buying $12,000 worth of equipment and sending it off for a friend is none of their business, but they like to _make_ things their business. $12,000 is a lot of money, too - if you were just going to buy a personal iPad like everyone else in Canada, they seem to be turning a blind eye. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/22 "2010-04-20T18:56:57Z")
Why not just have your friend make a payment on your Visa card, in UAE, of the amount he plans for you to spend? Then just cross the border with your Visa and charge it. Seems simple enough. No banks, no snooty bank clerks, no hassle. If you’re worried, alert Visa beforehand that you’ll be making a purchase in America. Should be no worries. What you’ll lose due to two conversions, (UAe - Can , Can - US ), will be less than drawing certified cheques, money orders, bank drafts, etc, with fees for each. Plus your time is worth something and any of these suggestions could backfire on you and find you in the US with no way to spend your chosen vehicle. In addition I wouldn’t be surprised if US banks want to charge you, on that end, for accepting/cashing your certified cheque, money order or bank draft, more fees to take into account and more hassle. Go with your charge card, I say. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/23 "2010-04-20T19:12:21Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Go with your charge card, I say. Good way to rack in some points or miles or whatever on your card, too. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/24 "2010-04-20T19:29:56Z")
Your desire is to be a friend by transferring money from the Middle East to a newly-created bank account in the USA owned by a Canadian so you can export technology currently unavailable outside of the USA back to the Middle East. The exact details are irrelevant when it comes down to brass tacks. You don’t see the red flags popping up all over? Your friend’s desire to have it now! I want it now! approach could land you in a world of hurt that could extend way beyond the time it takes Apple to legally make their products available to your friend overseas. Is this personal risk worth it to you? It doesn’t matter how innocuous this all sounds once the finer details are offered. Do you really think all the investigators will really care when they detain you? Or the judge after a few months in jail? I’m not doubting your sincerity, that of your friend, nor of what toys he wants right now! But in this post-9/11 world, at what point does this proposed scenario make not a whiff of common sense? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/25 "2010-04-20T19:49:19Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Your desire is to be a friend by transferring money from the Middle East to a newly-created bank account in the USA owned by a Canadian so you can export technology currently unavailable outside of the USA back to the Middle East. Commercial technology, please. Consumer commercial technology. > [@](#): > > You don’t see the red flags popping up all over? No. We’re talking bloody I-Pads I presume. Really, red flags about bloody I-Pads?!? > [@](#): > > approach could land you in a world of hurt that could extend way beyond the time it takes Apple to legally make their products available to your friend overseas. Unless his sales contract somehow forbids on-sales or gifts (and that is hard to imagine) it is very hard to imagine any world of hurt. > [@](#): > > Do you really think all the investigators will really care when they detain you? Or the judge after a few months in jail? I should very much hope that the USA has not gone down the path of utter insanity to the point that buying ordinary consumer products for a mate is a matter of jail time. What “investigators” would investigate rather escapes. > [@](#): > > But in this post-9/11 world, at what point does this proposed scenario make not a whiff of common sense? Certainly to this observer violates no common sense. I mean really… ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/26 "2010-04-20T20:46:30Z")
**wmfellows** your points are all valid. However, explain all that to those people who have a role to play in the scenario. I’m betting each one has their own set of policies and rules to follow, as well as their interpretation of the various laws. It only takes one in the process to raise the issue, and it appears the banker has done so. Of course, we haven’t even mentioned Apple and what export licenses and agreements need to be addressed. Maybe Apple doesn’t care ([I doubt it](http://www.apple.com/legal/export.html).). But the [Commerce Dept](http://www.bis.doc.gov/licensing/exportingbasics.htm) might. Sure, one iPad may be no biggie. It could be a gift for a friend. Or maybe buying it for a friend. But $12,000 worth of product is no longer doing it for a friend; it’s exporting commercial product. ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/27 "2010-04-20T20:47:56Z")
> [@Gus\_Handsome](#): > > So I’m wondering: > > 1. Am I doing anything wrong? > 2. Is it possible I have myself a rogue banker who might be mistaken? > 3. is there anyway for me to do this favor for my friend, or am I going to get locked and sent to Cuba for year while I try to explain myself. > > Any advice is appreciated. > Gus 1. No, there is nothing wrong or illegal in buying a product for your friend (but see below for the reasons for the banker’s reaction). It is possible that there are export restrictions on these products - I haven’t checked, but many consumer products are subject to export restrictions. However, that is not why the banker acted this way. 2. No, this is not a rogue banker. Banks are subject to anti-money laundering rules that require them to verify customers’ identities and to report suspicious transactions to regulators. From the point of view of the bank, it’s difficult to meet these requirements with you. You’re opening an account in order to enable a specific transaction in which you will act for an undisclosed principal in a distant country. Any U.S. financial institution is going to feel uncomfortable about allowing such a transaction to go forward. 3. But the bank’s legitimate concerns do not mean that you cannot move forward in some other way, although it may be less convenient to you. The basic financial transaction, as you describe it, is legal. Apple may want to restrict the distribution of its products, but that desire is not going to have too much effect on regulators. As mentioned, there may be export restrictions, but those are unlikely to have jackbooted peace officers dragging you away to Gitmo. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/28 "2010-04-20T20:55:03Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > But in this post-9/11 world, at what point does this proposed scenario make not a whiff of common sense? I guess at the point that the US becomes a police state. I move money between the US and the Mid East all the time (so that I can pay my bills). How is this any different? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/29 "2010-04-20T21:11:08Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I guess at the point that the US becomes a police state. > > I move money between the US and the Mid East all the time (so that I can pay my bills). How is this any different? Quite, I mean the paranoia on display over the bloody UAE, one only has to mention Middle East and rationality goes out the window. > [@Duckster](#): > > **wmfellows** your points are all valid. ] Well yes mate, and common sense. > [@](#): > > Maybe Apple doesn’t care ([I doubt it](http://www.apple.com/legal/export.html).). Doesn’t bloody matter if Apple cares, that’s commercial policy, not law. the buyer unless the contract says otherwise is under no obligation to bend to Apple’s wishes. Maybe the vendor will refuse to sell the Canadian sod the amount of product due to contract, but it’s not illegal. > [@](#): > > But the [Commerce Dept](http://www.bis.doc.gov/licensing/exportingbasics.htm) might. One quick google got me this. > **[Legal - Global Trade Compliance - Apple](https://www.apple.com/legal/more-resources/gtc.html)** I-Pad and almost all Apple items (a statement of rationality really) are all No License Required. Unless one is re-exporting to Iran, but that’s just American peevishness. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/30 "2010-04-20T22:17:49Z")
It’s the dollar figure that is sticking for me; I know that when I visit the US, I’m only allowed to bring $X back into Canada without governments getting interested, so I don’t see it as a far leap from that to the US postal service not wanting to ship $12,000 worth of product bought by a Canadian to the UAE. And I’m not sure about calling them “bloody iPads” - creates quite the mind picture. :eek: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/31 "2010-04-20T22:43:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > It’s the dollar figure that is sticking for me; I know that when I visit the US, I’m only allowed to bring $X back into Canada without governments getting interested, so I don’t see it as a far leap from that to the US postal service not wanting to ship $12,000 worth of product bought by a Canadian to the UAE. I would suspect the problem would not be shipping on the US end, it would be UAE customs. > [@](#): > > And I’m not sure about calling them “bloody iPads” - creates quite the mind picture. :eek: 😃 Ahem, well yes. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/32 "2010-04-20T23:45:20Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I would suspect the problem would not be shipping on the US end, it would be UAE customs. Nope. I lived in the UAE for a number of years. During that time I purchased a new computer online (from the Apple Store actually) for roughly $6K. It was delivered to my office in the USA and I arranged for a courier company to pick it up and ship it to me in the UAE. It cleared UAE customs in about 30 seconds with no fee and no inspection at all other than obviously the box indicated what it was… totally normal in the UAE as people do this all the time. I don’t know anyone who has been charged an import duty or who had to wait for anything to clear customs. Surely there is no issue at all on the UAE end. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/33 "2010-04-21T01:18:17Z")
It sounds like we wait longer for things to clear customs coming into Canada from the US! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/34 "2010-04-21T02:38:17Z")
1. It sounds like a scam. 2. High Tech items shipped to the UAE very often are actually trans-shipped to Iran. This could get you on some lists you do not want to be on, and even a trip to the greybar hotel. Do not do this. IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/35 "2010-04-21T02:57:22Z")
Sounds to me like the banker was signalling to you in as explicit terms as could be that your transaction would be reported to the feds under the (legally mandated) Suspicious Activity Report procedure. So the FBI likely _would_ be following up to see what you’re doing with that money. And in connection with the bank transfer itself, not filing the proper forms (for a transfer over $10,000) might mean you’ve already broken the law from the get-go. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/36 "2010-04-21T03:30:42Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I guess at the point that the US becomes a police state. Many will claim it became one in many ways a while back. But that’s a GD issue. > [@](#): > > I move money between the US and the Mid East all the time (so that I can pay my bills). How is this any different? Are you a citizen of country A, desiring to use a new bank account in country B to pay for goods from country B to be shipped to country C, with a monetary amount that will trigger country B’s warning system? ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Handsome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@Gus\_Handsome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Handsome)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/37 "2010-04-21T07:15:46Z")
Thanks for the replies everyone, they have been most helpful. I am learning a lot. Regards Gus ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/38 "2010-04-21T16:12:46Z")
How about just waiting until the products become available in Canada, then shipping them straight to your friend from here? I think taking the US out of the picture might help this transaction. Of course, you’ll get dinged on the higher prices of things once they’re available here. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/39 "2010-04-21T18:17:51Z")
Some banks may ban sending things to certain countries, usually for the financial risk these might entail (Nigeria etc.) or to encourage relationships with partner banks in these countries. The US Government bans doing business with certain countries or nationals opening accounts. These are generally the usual suspects, Iran, North Korean, Cuba, Burma, maybe Libya. This rule is required of all US banks. I am trying to find the list, but can’t remember the name for the life of me. I am pretty sure that the UAE is not one of these, so it’s a little strange how she responded. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689/40 "2010-04-21T21:13:21Z")
Why don’t you open a US$ bank account in Canada. I have two such accounts, one with Royal Bank and the other with Bank of Montreal. I assume that they would accept a draft from a friendly Arab country and then you could get a certified cheque for that amount. BoM, at least, also offers US$ denominated credit cards, or at least used to, although you might not want to go that far just to do a favour for a friend. You might have to explain to someone why you have a transaction for over $10K, but since nothing you are doing is illegal, that’s no problem. (Although Apple might object, there’s nothing illegal about it.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-us-bankers/536689.md?page=3)