# A question for Vets and Active Duty... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209 "2003-11-25T17:24:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/21 "2003-11-28T12:08:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ammo52 \* > \*\*And yet people continue to enlist in this all-volunteer force, one in which there are generally more applicants than available slots. Go figure. \*\* Hhmm… I don’t think your statement is truly correct… even before Bush and Iraq the US military were having problems filling up quotas. Maybe not in numbers… but certainly in quality. The higher demands on soldier’s brain in order to operate ever more complex military gizmos and tasks requires educational and intelligence levels that are ever higher. ``` I would agree that most enlist for money and education mostly... see the number of latinos seeking citizenship roman style. Now with the Iraq situation... I am not sure how many are enlisting... and if they are enough. 18 year olds have little idea of what they are doing... even when they are going to college instead of the army. Some of course know very well... but many or most... not so sure. I was a lost 18 yr old once. ``` ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/22 "2003-11-28T12:14:03Z")
When I was in the Army most people were joining to serve their country. There were other various reasons, such as family tradition, glory seekers, needed a job, wanted discipline, college, or a career in the military. No one was in denial about the possibility of getting killed. We could be accused of not really knowing the realities of war, but we certainly didn’t think we were just doing four years and out without any chance of getting hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/23 "2003-11-28T12:18:09Z")
Well anyone who enlists now surely know they will get shot at. Before Bush, 9/11 and Iraq… that was a distant possibility at best. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/24 "2003-11-28T12:29:09Z")
NOt really. DUring the 90s, the US undertook a ton of peacekeeping missions and a lot of troops were rotated through. THe risks were obviously much lower than in Iraq or Afghanistan, but it was still present. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/25 "2003-11-28T14:16:14Z")
Pathetically lower thou… and with the heavy demands on troop numbers in Iraq… every unit will probably have to be used during the next 2-3 years. Compare to the zero casualty peacekeeping in the Balkans and the differences are quite big. Plus added dangers of fatal accidents. More heli rides… more bad road conditions… or whatever makes these accidents more common during deployement. ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/26 "2003-11-28T15:05:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chefguy \* > \*\*The medical facilities won’t treat me, even though that is what was promised. If I want to use that benefit, I’m at the mercy of whatever physician is either honorable enough or desperate enough to take the pittance the USG offers for payment. > > \*\* I’m curious about this one statement, **Chefguy**. Where are you that you are denied treatment in a military medical facility? At every base we’ve ever been, the clinics/hospitals always did a brisk business in treating retirees. Heck, the one we are at now, being in Florida, almost treats more retirees than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![kmg365](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@kmg365](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kmg365)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/27 "2003-11-28T20:15:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*I believe most folks who enlist for the armed services do so because they’re from lower-income familes, and feel it is an easier way to get the training and/or experience needed to advance socially. At least, I don’t know of many enlisted soldiers from high-income families, nor do I know of any major recruiting efforts in Beverly Hills or Kennebunkport. \*\* Sorry, **rj** , but I have to disagree with your rather elitist and crackpot social bs theory regarding why people join the military. FYI, people do not join the U.S. military “because they’re from lower-income families.” That is just a crock of sh\*t. The fact is that people join the service for a myriad of reasons, and those reasons have little to do with how much money their parents make. Having served in the Army myself, it was my experience that most people joined for the same reasons I did. Namely, we joined for the experience, for the opportunity to serve our country, for college benefits, for tradition’s sake, for career opportunites, for adventure, to expand our horizons, for disicipline, etc. Whether you’re from a “low-income” family or “high-income” family is not a “reason” per se for joining the military. Being from a “low-income” background is simply a factor for considering military service. On the other hand, being from a “high-income” background is also a factor for considering military service as well. (My parents are both successful physician, which kinda’ puts our family in the “high-income” track, but I decided that serving in the infantry as grunt for four years was my way of giving back to my country.) That being said, your comment presumes that men and women serving in uniform somehow represent a lower stratum of society that seek handouts by using the military as a form of social welfare or as an “easy” out. What a presumtuous and offensive insinuation that reflects a total lack of knowledge! FTR, serving in the military was the hardest thing I ever did, but it was worth it because it gave me pride in my country and confidence in my abilities. Using the logic you presented as to why people join the service – which are not reasons at all, but rather your stereotypng of people in uniform – is like saying that people join the military b/c they are minorities or members of a particular racial category. Also, the fact that you are not aware of any recruiting efforts in “Kennebunkport” or “Beverly Hills”, suggests more that you haven’t looked, rather than the absence of such efforts taking place. I think you are either too young or too sheltered to have any idea what is really going on. For a person like you, I would suggest highly joining your service. It will open your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/28 "2003-11-29T13:16:52Z")
Most soldiers come from the middle class. Most wealthy become officers. Lower officers, especially platoon leaders, tend to have short life expectancies in war. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/29 "2003-11-29T23:07:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kmg365 \* > FYI, people do not join the U.S. military “because they’re from lower-income families.” No, I said they joined because they wanted to get the skills needed to advance themselves socially (experience, job skills, college benefits, etc.), much as you wrote two paragraphs later. It just happens that rich folks don’t have this need, so they don’t get recruited as much. > [@](#): > > That being said, your comment presumes that men and women serving in uniform somehow represent a lower stratum of society that seek handouts by using the military as a form of social welfare or as an “easy” out. Nah, it just says the military spends more effort trying to find recruits among folks who sign up because they have fewer alternatives to them. And you know what the incredible thing is? I’m not half as mistaken as you think I am: > [@](#): > > **[DECEPTIONS IN MILITARY RECRUITING:](http://www.veteransforpeace.org/deceptioninrecruiting.htm) > an ex-Insider Speaks Out** > I was a Marine recruiter’s assistant for 75 days. During my active duty service, from 1994-98, I witnessed how recruiters manipulate the **poor and young** into fighting for the rich and powerful. … Military recruiters are the first line of offense in this machinery that defends the interests of the powerful at the **expense of the less fortunate.** > [@](#): > > **[Military Mirrors Working-Class America](http://www.radicalmiddle.com/military_mirrors.htm)** > Compared to their contemporaries in civilian life, the armed forces have a **greater percentage of minorities,** a higher proportion of high school graduates and better reading levels. As a group, about 60 percent of enlisted men and women are white; they tend to be married and upwardly mobile, but to **come from families without the resources to send them to college.** > > _…snip…_ > > “It sounds kind of fair,” Private Philbert said. "It’s not fair that some **poor kids don’t have much of a choice but to join** if they want to be productive because they didn’t go to a good school, or they had family problems that kept them from doing well, so they join up and they’re the ones that die for our country while **the rich kids can avoid it.** > [@](#): > > **[Giving Hypocrisy a Bad Name](http://www.voznuestra.com/politicalwires/_2002/_december/11)** > The military is not targeting students in the lower halves of their classes. It targets those who would normally be eligible for a college education but **because of economic disadvantages** find the illusions pressed by the military attractive. > [@](#): > > **[Who Will Fight?](http://www.fatdawg.com/who2.html)** > Critics say the very notion of an all-volunteer force is a misnomer. In reality, they say, it simply illustrates that blacks “volunteer” for the Army because **it’s the only place offering affordable education.** Thus, African Americans, who make up 14 percent of the U.S. population ages 18-24, comprise almost 22 percent of enlisted personnel. > > _…snip…_ > > The public generally presumes **no Ivy League-bound rich kid would consider enlisting in the military** – and they’re right. > > In fact, if those not-for-attribution Petagon spokespeople were more forthcoming, they would acknowledge the fretting that goes on at Defense Department conclaves over **the lack of suburban and upper-class officers, much less recruits.** > > Former Secretary of the Navy John Lehman has warned repeatedly of the growing gap between “the elites and the rest of us,” noting that the Yale Flying Club was key to naval aviation in world wars. Care to guess how many Yale graduates have entered the service since 1986? A measly dozen. > > As recently as two years ago, an internal Defense Department study bemoaned the **glaring shortage of new recruits from upper-middle and upper-class backgrounds.** ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/30 "2003-11-30T03:45:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > Most soldiers come from the middle class. Most wealthy become officers. Lower officers, especially platoon leaders, tend to have short life expectancies in war. \*\* This sounds like the stuff of 'Nam movie cliches. Is there any factual basis for this? Why is there a disproportionate amount of poor people in the military? Because, let’s face it, most people would not choose a career where you spent a significant amount of time marching, sleeping in the mud, carrying heavy shit around, getting yelled at and having people shoot at you if they had something better to look forward to. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/31 "2003-11-30T04:55:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yanceylebeef \* > **Where is this seemingly bottomless pit of support for this president and his administration coming from?** I’m going to stand up next to **Airman Doors, USAF**. Some of us just want to do what’s right. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/32 "2003-11-30T05:29:34Z")
**Why is there a disproportionate amount of poor people in the military? Because, let’s face it, most people would not choose a career where you spent a significant amount of time marching, sleeping in the mud, carrying heavy shit around, getting yelled at and having people shoot at you if they had something better to look forward to.** Uh, there isn’t a disproportionate number of poor in the military. One good reason is that the military’s standards are such that if you are failing in civilian life you probably aren’t going to make it in the military either. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/33 "2003-11-30T13:26:53Z")
You sure Adaher ? I certainly don’t think the demands of a regular grunt work are very high on the educational aspect. Officers are something else of course… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/34 "2003-11-30T13:35:12Z")
Well, you have to get a minimum score on the ASVAB test, and you have to have a high school diploma or GED. So that eliminates something like the bottom 10% right there. You also have to pass fairly challenging written tests in training. You’ll get a lot of chances, but a lot of people do end up getting sent home. Then there is the aspect of adjusting to military life. A lot of the poor are poor because they don’t take authority all that well, so they tend to get fired from their jobs. They get fired from the military too. Obviously, when there was a draft, the poor were the bulk of the grunts. But in an all-volunteer army, it’s mostly middle class because the standards are higher and they are more willing to kick people out who don’t meet standards. When dealing with a draftee army, they’ll just keep kicking your butt until you submit. THey don’t bother in volunteer armies because you are supposed to want to be there in the first place, so shouldn’t require that kind of treatment. [https://www.patrick.af.mil/deomi/Library/EOReadFile/Blacks%20Issues/BI\_Spring03/Experts%20Seek%20Roots%20of%20Militarys%20Racial%20Makeup.pdf](https://www.patrick.af.mil/deomi/Library/EOReadFile/Blacks%20Issues/BI_Spring03/Experts%20Seek%20Roots%20of%20Militarys%20Racial%20Makeup.pdf) Whites dominate the combat arms, blacks tend to do support. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/35 "2003-11-30T13:53:20Z")
check if the link is working… ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/36 "2003-12-02T01:32:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tripler \* > \*\*I’m going to stand up next to **Airman Doors, USAF**. > > Some of us just want to do what’s right. \*\* If I may join you gentlemen. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/37 "2003-12-02T02:57:56Z")
Of course you can join us. 🙂 As the junior ranking member of our little troika, I only ask that you don’t make me do too much bitchwork. I usually leave that kind of stuff for officers, so it would take a while to get used to it. BTW, I like my coffee black. Ma’am. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/38 "2003-12-02T20:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Namely, we joined for the experience, for the opportunity to serve our country, for college benefits, for tradition’s sake, for career opportunites, for adventure, to expand our horizons, for disicipline, etc. Don’t forget “machismo” which is a pretty potent force in any culture. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/39 "2003-12-02T21:30:59Z")
Wow, I disappear for a couple of days and all heck breaks loose. I feel like I need to re-assert a couple of points in my OP…first of all, **Rjung** is completely uninformed about the quality, and caliber of the people who are serving in the military today. **Ammo52** is correct, there are more people signing up than slots available. The services can and are more selective now than ever before. I worked with Enlisted folks who had just as or better educations than the people who were leading them. Granted my AFSC (Radio and Television Broadcaster) also had more trouble makers, questioning minds, and sarcasm per person than any othere outfit in the military. Hands down the men and women who I worked with were some of the best I’ve seen and heard. You couldn’t ask for more profesionalism or dedication from anyone. **Adaher** said > [@](#): > > Most soldiers come from the middle class. Most wealthy become officers. Lower officers, especially platoon leaders, tend to have short life expectancies in war. I’m not even going to dignify this with a response. Dumbest thing I’ve seen writen down in a few months, and I work for the Federal Government, for crying out loud. I know the people serving in the military today are the most educated, dedicated and diligent people out there, I guess that’s why I hate to see them being taken advantage of by these cynical wrap myself around the flag yahoos we have in office right now. ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209/40 "2003-12-03T02:31:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*Of course you can join us. 🙂 > > As the junior ranking member of our little troika, I only ask that you don’t make me do too much bitchwork. I usually leave that kind of stuff for officers, so it would take a while to get used to it. > > BTW, I like my coffee black. Ma’am. 😃 \*\* Really. Guess you’d better make some coffee then. Airman. 😉 > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by sqweels_ **Don’t forget “machismo” which is a pretty potent force in any culture** . Yeah, I guess it’s all that testosterone I’ve got floatin’ around that made me join. 'Scuse me while I go shave. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-vets-and-active-duty/215209.md?page=3)