# A Question of Vexillology \[New New Zealand flag\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 1, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178 "2015-10-01T22:19:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Orson\_Carte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Orson\_Carte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orson_Carte)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/41 "2015-10-02T23:54:38Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I should be fair and say three butter packets and a monkey’s bum; Red Peak at least looks like a flag and not a corporate logo: the trouble is that it’s not particularly a New Zealand flag, even when you’ve had it explained. I have to say that, up until now, it had never occurred to me. But, the black ‘koru’ really does look like the rear-end of a rapidly departing bull. (And, for a country with a tradition of bull-shipping this has palpable symbolism). I was also thinking that the ‘Red Peak’ doesn’t quite fit the bill as a butter-packet label. But, you’ve got to admit it makes a rather trendy motif on a beer bottle. [http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72184848/garage-project-brewery-producing-red-peak-beer](http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72184848/garage-project-brewery-producing-red-peak-beer) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/42 "2015-10-03T00:15:17Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Four butter packets and a monkey’s bum. [Hoist the butter flag.](http://i.imgur.com/exsRlqb.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/43 "2015-10-03T02:59:23Z")
The League of Pirates will legally challenge any black & white design on the grounds of NZ’s persecution of Kim Dotcom, one of the most feared buccaneers to ever sail the Seven Seas. Although a skeleton holding an hourglass would certainly make New Zealand distinctive, if that’s what they’re going for. ---
**Author:** ![Orson\_Carte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Orson\_Carte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orson_Carte)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/44 "2015-10-03T03:05:58Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > The League of Pirates will legally challenge any black & white design on the grounds of NZ’s persecution of Kim Dotcom, one of the most feared buccaneers to ever sail the Seven Seas. > > Although a skeleton holding an hourglass would certainly make New Zealand distinctive, if that’s what they’re going for. Persecuting the piratical Dotcom? We’re \*\*\*harbouring \*\*\*him, ffs! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/45 "2015-10-04T00:10:01Z")
> [@Nema98](#): > > I hope people truly vote for whichever they like and not let politics get in the way. Speaking of which, are there measures being taken to ensure that, there being five choices (six if you count NOT changing) the final proposal is truly representative and doesn’t squeak in on a mere plurality? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/46 "2015-10-04T00:18:13Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Speaking of which, are there measures being taken to ensure that, there being five choices (six if you count NOT changing) the final proposal is truly representative and doesn’t squeak in on a mere plurality? The final new design will be selected by a plurality, but the decision on changing the flag will only have two choices (change or don’t) so one or the other will have to get a majority (unless there’s a tie, I guess). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/47 "2015-10-04T00:21:41Z")
> [@Orson\_Carte](#): > > If you were to quote me in full I think it would be apparent that I wasn’t suggesting that at all. > I wasn’t, in fact, suggesting anything - merely noting that one of the prime drivers for re-design is to positively differentiate NZ from Australia. You didn’t notice that you got the number of stars wrong? It was a joke because the NZ flag has 4 stars, not 5. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/48 "2015-10-04T00:37:57Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The final new design will be selected by a plurality, but the decision on changing the flag will only have two choices (change or don’t) so one or the other will have to get a majority (unless there’s a tie, I guess). A system which is rigged in favor of No Change. It would be better to have at least a runoff between the top two new designs, before going against the existing flag. ---
**Author:** ![Orson\_Carte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Orson\_Carte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orson_Carte)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/49 "2015-10-04T20:16:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You didn’t notice that you got the number of stars wrong? It was a joke because the NZ flag has 4 stars, not 5. You’re quite right, I goofed. Sorry I missed the joke. On the matter of ‘stars’, I’ve noticed quite a number of self-proclaimed pundits claiming that any new design _has_ to bear the stars of the southern cross, because “otherwise the National Anthem, which mentions ‘Pacific’s Triple Star’ loses its meaning”. Apart from sounding like a pretty lame justification it also erroneous - the 'triple star almost certainly doesn’t refer to the southern cross but more likely to the three main islands of NZ (though there is some uncertainty about this - and we can’t ask the dead composer). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/50 "2015-10-04T20:26:55Z")
#1 or #5. I’m split - I like the nod to history that #5 has, but also see the side of people who want either a clean break in design or are just tired of red, white and blue flags. ---
**Author:** ![Orson\_Carte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Orson\_Carte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orson_Carte)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/51 "2015-10-04T20:56:17Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > A system which is rigged in favor of No Change. It would be better to have at least a runoff between the top two new designs, before going against the existing flag. While it is true that (according to current polls) it is less than likely that the flag will be changed, I don’t think it is fair to say the process is _rigged_ to favour the status quo. But it could almost certainly have been handled better. The first referendum requires the public to ‘rank’ the five finalists in order of preference. I’m really not sure why they are taking this a census because, pure and simple, the one with the most votes is to be the ‘winner’. And it is this ‘winner’ that is matched, head to head with the existing flag in the second referendum. So, the eventual is selected by a simple majority. I do, however, agree that the process is doomed to retain the status quo; in that the more choices that are given in the first poll, the more the vote is split. And those who determinedly want the change, but see their personal choice fail would then need to transfer their allegiance to a design they mightn’t necessarily favour. I would think that people being people, a significant number, won’t go along with that mind-shift. And combine this initially hopeful but now disenchanted set with the number who adamantly didn’t want change in the first place, and I think the retention of the status quo is a virtual certainty. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/52 "2015-10-04T21:10:10Z")
That’s basically what I mean by “rigged”–structurally biased in favor of the status quo, rather than the best expression of the popular desire. How much anyone’s _intent_ played a role in setting it up this way is unknown to me. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/53 "2015-10-04T23:00:09Z")
> [@Orson\_Carte](#): > > The first referendum requires the public to ‘rank’ the five finalists in order of preference. I’m really not sure why they are taking this a census because, pure and simple, the one with the most votes is to be the ‘winner’. That is a bit of a puzzle – one could see doing this if they were to use a ranked _count_, in which if there’s no clear winner then second choice votes count for which makes the threshold to advance to the final. I guess they just want to be able to tell someone “look, dude, 60% of the voters ranked that dead last, get over it”. I myself would have settled on just one of the fern+stars pattern, as things stand with vote-splitting the Southern Cross seems at a disadvantage on the first round. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/54 "2015-10-05T01:39:04Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Well - I would go for the last one. At least it gives a nod to history with the red, white and blue. I lean toward rejecting it for being those three colors! Too many blue-white-red flags already! I do like the first one, though. It keeps the familiar red Southern Cross for an easy sense of continuity. That could be useful. On the other hand, if you are trying to look really different from Australia, yeah, don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/55 "2015-10-05T03:01:09Z")
Speaking of these sorts of flags, reading what was mentioned earlier about Fiji, if Wiki is to be trusted as of now of the Commonwealth Realms (the independent countries that share the same crown) only Australia, New Zealand and Tuvalu still use the Ensign or a close derivative as a national flag. Unusually, Fiji became a republic back in 1987 yet has retained its old Ensign-derived flag for almost 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/56 "2015-10-05T03:10:29Z")
Huh. I thought Fiji WAS a commonwealth realm because of their flag! Thanks for fighting my ignorance. (And now I’m extra-glad they’re changing it) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/57 "2015-10-05T03:18:35Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > The reasons for change seem pretty silly. Maybe all countries could completely change their flags every century ? > Those proposals are all fugly: these official alternatives seem like they were dreamt up by weak-minded art-students from the 1960s. And they adhere to no standards in flag construction. However doing all this no doubt is making some people feel self-important: _‘ **We** are changing a nation !’_… Good points. They struck out at me as busy and very un-flag-like, especially the ‘curled thing’ spiral one. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/58 "2015-10-05T03:20:46Z")
I’m just glad that none of the finalists had that weird combination of fern leaf and kiwi bird in a single icon. That was dumb. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/59 "2015-10-05T03:34:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I lean toward rejecting it for being those three colors! Too many blue-white-red flags already!.. Let’s see. USA UK Australia Netherlands France Iceland Norway Czech Republic Russia Slovenia Slovakia Serbia North Korea Thailand Cuba Panama And probably a few more. Yep, that’s a lot! ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178/60 "2015-10-05T05:00:36Z")
As a proud Kiwi 1. I WANT change… The union jack needs to go. 2. I would like the southern cross retained. 3. Am ok with Koru or Silver Fern. 4. Our troops have fought under a Silver Fern ensign. 5. The Silver Fern is symbolic of good luck / talisman. 6. I think that the process is solid. Unless there is indisputable support for change then status quo is correct…IOW… If in the current setup the existing flag has an advantage I think that is ok. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-of-vexillology-new-new-zealand-flag/733178.md?page=4)