# A question on case systems (linguistics). **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 2, 2001, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-on-case-systems-linguistics/70961 "2001-07-02T14:37:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![N\_A\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6de8d8/32.png) [@N\_A\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N_A_M)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-on-case-systems-linguistics/70961/1 "2001-07-02T14:37:44Z")
I was looking through an online Russian textbook, and the one thing that caught my eye was something called an ‘instrumental case’. While I understand case systems perfectly well, my self-study of German giving me that, I wondered what the heck an ‘instrumental case’ was. Later, I read a thread which mentioned other cases. The vocative, declarative (?), and so on. That further whetted my curiousity. Can someone please explain these other cases, by which I mean cases other than the nominative, accusative, dative, and genitive? I’d appreciate it greatly. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-on-case-systems-linguistics/70961/2 "2001-07-02T14:55:11Z")
I only can give information about the ablative and the vocative which, together with the standard cases you’ve mentioned, build up the Latin case system. The vocative is the case used when you directly address a person. So in “Hi, Bob, how are you?” _Bob_would be a vocative, although it’s of course not visible in English, which does not have cases. In Latin, vocatives are always except for one declination identical to the nominative (this is why Casear’s last words are said to have been “tu quoque fili”: \*fili[i/] is the vocative of _filius_, son.) The ablative in Latin has many different functions; one of this is, I suppose, the one of your Russian instrumental case: It gives the instrument which helps you to do something. Thus if a Roman killed someone with his sword, he had to turn the sword into the ablative: _gladius_ becomes _gladio_. The ablative has quite a few other functions in Latin, but one of the most important is the instrumental one. The declarative I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-on-case-systems-linguistics/70961/3 "2001-07-02T14:56:37Z")
Jesus, I forgot the tags. Here it is properly: I only can give information about the ablative and the vocative which, together with the standard cases you’ve mentioned, build up the Latin case system. The vocative is the case used when you directly address a person. So in “Hi, Bob, how are you?” _Bob_would be a vocative, although it’s of course not visible in English, which does not have cases. In Latin, vocatives are always except for one declination identical to the nominative (this is why Casear’s last words are said to have been “tu quoque fili”: _fili_ is the vocative of _filius_, son.) The ablative in Latin has many different functions; one of this is, I suppose, the one of your Russian instrumental case: It gives the instrument which helps you to do something. Thus if a Roman killed someone with his sword, he had to turn the sword into the ablative: _gladius_ becomes _gladio_. The ablative has quite a few other functions in Latin, but one of the most important is the instrumental one. The declarative I don’t know. \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-on-case-systems-linguistics/70961/4 "2001-07-02T15:47:19Z")
Case structures exist to show what role a given word fills in a sentence. There are other ways to do this: English, for example, (mostly) uses word order to do the same job. (English pronouns have some remnants of a case structure; basically, they come in a nominative [subject of sentence] and, well, not-nominative form). Standard example; in English, _Brutus killed Caesar_ shows who did what to whom by way of word order; change the order around (_Caesar killed Brutus_) and you chnage the meaning of the sentence. In Latin, though, the case endings show the roles in the sentence: _Brutus necavit Caesarem_ means the same as _Caesarem necavit Brutus_; if you want to change who did whom, you have to say _Caesar necavit Brutum_. Case structures vary from language to language: as noted, German gets by with four, Russian with five, Latin with six, and I’ve heard that Finnish has sixteen (which put me off learning Finnish, rather). As **Schnitte** points out, there’s a fairly strong overlap between the Latin ablative and the Russian instrumental, though it’s not exact. One way of looking at it might be through prepositions, which English uses extensively to establish relationships. For example, the Latin dative is often expressed with English _to_, genitive with _of_, ablative with _by_ or _with_. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-on-case-systems-linguistics/70961/5 "2001-07-02T15:53:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Schnitte \* > \*\*Jesus, I forgot the tags. Here it is properly: > > I only can give information about the ablative and the vocative which, together with the standard cases you’ve mentioned, build up the Latin case system. > The vocative is the case used when you directly address a person. So in “Hi, Bob, how are you?” _Bob_would be a vocative, although it’s of course not visible in English, which does not have cases. The declarative I don’t know. \*\* \*\* [/QUOTE] Actually, this used to be where Latin-to-English translators would insert that quaint salutation “O”, as in "Hi, O Bob! I’ve noticed also that old textbooks would use _O_ to express the vocative in english, saying, for instance, that such and such ending of _Rex_ was vocative, and therefore meant “O King!”. Lithuanian still has a vocative in some declensions. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-on-case-systems-linguistics/70961/6 "2001-07-02T16:17:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > \*\* > Actually, this used to be where Latin-to-English translators would insert that quaint salutation “O”, as in "Hi, O Bob! > I’ve noticed also that old textbooks would use _O_ to express the vocative in english, saying, for instance, that such and such ending of _Rex_ was vocative, and therefore meant “O King!”. > > \*\* Yes… this convention worked _so_ well in Latin textbooks, which often used inanimate nouns to demonstrate the declensions (“1st decl., Nom. _mensa_, a table; Voc. _mensa_, O table!”… cue giggling from schoolboys wondering why the ancient Romans talked to tables). [rotten joke] Q: How do you decline an irregular Latin noun? A: “No thank you, I don’t want an irregular Latin noun.” [/rotten joke] ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-on-case-systems-linguistics/70961/7 "2001-07-02T19:35:08Z")
Proto-Indo-European probably had 8 noun cases, which we generally call by their anglicized Latin names [ul] nominative (subject of the verb) accusative (direct object of the verb) genitive (possessive, in whose possession) dative (indirect object, to whom given) locative (at which place) ablative (from which place) instrumental (by which means) vocative (to whom addressed)[/ul]The instrumental case was lost early in Latin’s ancestry. Proto-Slavic had lost its ablative form, and Proto-Germanic had lost its locative. The strong tendency has been for further losses to occur since then. You shouldn’t always assume that a case called by one of the above names is necessarily a direct descendant of the Proto-Indo-European case. Early grammarians named cases by the role they play in a sentence, not by their etymology. I can’t think of a specific example of a mis-named case in an IE language, but I do vaguely remember reading that they exist (in Icelandic?). Since Finnish is not an IE language, the 15 to 20 Finnish cases are not etymologically related to the IE cases, but some of them are given Latin-style names anyway.