# A Question: The rich and the middle class **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431 "2011-02-24T08:12:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/41 "2011-02-24T19:17:35Z")
Really interesting article in the current issue of Inc. magazine. About Finland. Very high taxes there. Very socialistic approach to government, excellent social safety net, free health benefits for all. Terrible for business and entrepreneurs, right? WRONG!!! Finland went through the recession pretty much unscathed. Three percent annual growth rate throughout, IIRC. Also, Finland has a much higher rate of successful entrepreneurship. Why? Because the cost of failure is so much lower! You fail, you still have food to eat, a place to live, and you can go to the doctor when you get sick. DO NOT BELIEVE CONSERVATIVES ON ECONOMIC MATTERS! They are proven failures. They do not know what they are talking about. They have a terrible, burning need to promote whatever will benefit the wealthy elite. They have no ideas, just rationales. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/42 "2011-02-24T19:19:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It could also mean that teachers are too ethical to hurt the education of their students when they are screwed by the politicians. Just like when the money for classroom supplies vanished they paid for it out of their own pockets. I’m sure someone here will tell you that only means they have too much money. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/43 "2011-02-24T19:23:08Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Because the cost of failure is so much lower! You fail, you still have food to eat, a place to live, and you can go to the doctor when you get sick. well to be fair, the cost of failure isn’t very low here, either. The taxpayer will just bail you out if you fuck up bad enough. The great thing is that we don’t even ask for anything in return. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/44 "2011-02-24T19:27:56Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Could you point to a state that is facing a real teacher shortage that isn’t because of a budget shortfall but because of a lack of applicants? [Sure](http://www.tea.state.tx.us/loan.aspx). The Texas Education Agency is offering student loan forgiveness even now in critical need areas because enough qualified applicants can’t be found at the wages we are paying. > [@](#): > > This strikes me as a self-justifying load of crap. Workers in the private sector are facing wage cuts much greater than anything the public sector has faced, and it hasn’t caused a collapse in productivity. And most of the cuts the teachers are being asked to take are really cuts to their long-term benefits or being asked to contribute a small amount to their health care or retirement - like everyone else pretty much has to do. It’s unlikely my wages are going to be cut, but for most of us in Texas our work load will be greatly extended: there will be a lot more teachers teaching 30-40 more students than before, and a lot more teaching more preps than they taught before. That’s an effective wage cut–more work for the same pay–and there is no doubt in my mind that that will decrease productivity. It’s insulting to teachers to say that many AREN’T already working as hard as they can, and that increasing their work load won’t lead to a decrease in quality. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/45 "2011-02-24T19:38:21Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Here in TX, at least, it has to do with limits on deficit spending by the state. Constitutionally, we have to have a balanced budget: when the tax revenues aren’t there (and they aren’t there in a really big way right now), taxes have to go up or spending has to go down. No one is willing to raise taxes because the last election made them think that that will be death in the primaries. Education is the largest single issue in the budget, so any meaningful cuts will hit education. > > On the federal level, deficit spending is the norm. The whole way of thinking about these issues is different. The theory, at least, is that by keeping taxes low on the top percents of earners, the economy as a whole will grow/recover in a more robust fashion, helping everyone. > > If the federal government had to balance their budget the way many states do, the conversations last December would have been very, very different. I’m not saying that any of this makes a whole lot of sense, but the “they” that wanted to extend the Bush tax cuts is not the same “they” that are slashing state budgets everywhere right now. According to this, it isn’t education that is the highest, it’s Health Care (Govt pensions excluded) [Texas State And Local Spending for 2025 - Charts Tables History](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/texas_state_spending.html#usgs302a) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/46 "2011-02-24T19:38:46Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > well to be fair, the cost of failure isn’t very low here, either. The taxpayer will just bail you out if you fuck up bad enough. > > The great thing is that we don’t even ask for anything in return. I don’t really understand what you are saying. Say you invest your savings in a taco stand, which goes bust. Who exactly will pay your rent and give you food? Where’s the taxpayer program for that? Plus, I think you meant to say “isn’t very **high** ,” right? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/47 "2011-02-24T19:39:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t really understand what you are saying. Say you invest your savings in a taco stand, which goes bust. Who exactly will pay your rent and give you food? Where’s the taxpayer program for that? Plus, I think you meant to say “isn’t very **high** ,” right? you’re missing the TARP mockery. (yes, I should’ve said “the cost of failure is very low here” or “the cost of failure isn’t very high” though) ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/48 "2011-02-24T19:44:56Z")
Oh thank the gods I am no longer a teacher. Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou. I never felt more valueless, unneeded, part of a joke and spit upon then when I was a teacher. Thank you for me not having to go through that again. Yes - I am actually that creature you heard of…that left teaching primarily because of the pay. I also, IMHO, was damn good at it. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/49 "2011-02-24T20:00:25Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > According to this, it isn’t education that is the highest, it’s Health Care (Govt pensions excluded) [Texas State And Local Spending for 2025 - Charts Tables History](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/texas_state_spending.html#usgs302a) I did not realize that. Ignorance fought. The fact remains, however, that education is still a whopping 23% of the state budget, and health care is even less open to change. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/50 "2011-02-24T20:08:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I did not realize that. Ignorance fought. The fact remains, however, that education is still a whopping 23% of the state budget, and health care is even less open to change. there’s no reason it should be that way. in fact, I can make the argument that health care is easier to change. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/51 "2011-02-24T20:15:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it’s what’s called “common sense”. You consider both the short- and long-term effects of what you do. At least you do if you are a conservative who is concerned about deficits and entitlements and looming costs. If you simply say “teachers need unlimited raises no matter what” I guess you are a liberal. Except “should you consider the long term and short term effects” wasn’t the question posed, was it? Making up a question to answer isn’t really a very honest way of debating. > [@Shodan](#): > > I’m having trouble parsing this sentence. If I understand it, it’s wrong. I said that both the long- and short-term effects of a pay cut (pretending for the moment that teachers are facing a pay cut, which they are not) need to be considered. So you did invent a question - that makes things a lot clearer. > [@Shodan](#): > > If you are saying that teachers are in some way prevented from leaving their jobs and working in the private sector, I can tell you from personal experience (I was a student teacher in the Wisconsin public school system many years ago) that this is not the case. My wife was a teacher for some years, left to work in the private sector, and is now teaching again. Where did I say that? Do you actually know the definition of short term and long term when considering economic matters? Because that would be kind of helpful. > [@Shodan](#): > > If you are claiming that short-term effects cannot be considered in deciding if teachers are over-paid, that’s wrong too. Both long- and short-term effects need to be considered. > > By the way, both short- and long-term effects need to be considered. > > … > > PS - Both short- and long-term effects need to be considered. And the Holocaust was evil. Why are you arguing it was legitimate? See - making up questions and then answering them makes for a pretty silly debate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/52 "2011-02-24T21:00:20Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Are you talking short term or long term effects here? Doesn’t really matter. Teaching is a job, and it is (or should be) subject to market forces, both long and short term, like any other job. > [@](#): > > Also, how do you define “the quality of education”? Again, it doesn’t really matter. However the state in question decides to define it. That could be test scores, teacher evaluation, graduation rates, or any combination of metrics one comes up with. My point, though, is that it makes no sense to talk about teacher’s pay in the abstract. This is not rocket science. Companies figure this sort of stuff out all the time without agonizing about in public. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/53 "2011-02-24T21:08:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In terms of the U.S. government, yes it is. The federal government has a budget deficit of 1.6 trillion dollars. Taking 7% more of the income from the top 1.2 million households wouldn’t even cover 5% of the _deficit_, let alone be the wellspring of wealth that could lift up the middle class. And let’s not forget that the state governments also take their share of the wealth from the rich. > … Just asking if income inequality is good or bad is asking only half the question. The REAL question is, “Is achieving income equality a good that outweighs the negative effects of the policies required to achieve it?” Even if income inequality is bad, the effort to reduce or eliminate it could result in outcomes far worse. You know, like destroying civil liberty or bankrupting the country. (a) Unless you challenge the quoted figures, you fail at simple arithmetic. $109 bill/$1.6 trill is more than 5%. (b) The present high deficit is, all hope, a brief anamoly due to the severe slump. You seem not to acknowledge that. (c) “Lifting” the middle class is an ambiguous goal, and may indeed be unattainable. I’m just trying to maintain services like public education at levels they had before wrong-headed governance took over. (d) You didn’t read the quote I provided did you? When all taxes are considered, America already almost has “flat tax”, with super-rich paying 31% and median household paying 25%. Given that taxation is almost flat, your concern about increasing taxes on the rich “destroying civil liberty or bankrupting the country” seems … (uh oh, we’re not in BBQ Pit) … hyperbolic. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/54 "2011-02-24T21:08:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Doesn’t really matter. Teaching is a job, and it is (or should be) subject to market forces, both long and short term, like any other job. Well it absolutely does matter. If you are saying you can tell whether teachers are overpaid by looking at the effect of a 10% drop in wages, then it absolutely matters whether you look in the short or long term. If you drop wages 10%, and no one leaves **in the short term** , it says nothing whatsoever about whether the people were overpaid. If, however, they don’t leave **in the long term** then it is indicative that, under a free market analysis, they were overpaid. This really isn’t complicated, and goes to the very heart of what the terms short and long term mean. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Again, it doesn’t really matter. However the state in question decides to define it. That could be test scores, teacher evaluation, graduation rates, or any combination of metrics one comes up with. > > My point, though, is that it makes no sense to talk about teacher’s pay in the abstract. This is not rocket science. Companies figure this sort of stuff out all the time without agonizing about in public. Actually, again, it fundamentally matters. If your measurements of student success are relative, then there being no drop in them doesn’t tell you anything at all. If they are absolute, on the other hand, then no reduction in standards when salaries are reduced is a possibility indicator that, under a free market analysis, teachers were overpaid. You are right. It’s not rocket science. But seeking to reduce education to deliverables in the same fashion that a profit maximizing corporation (which we have to assume exists for free market analysis to work) isn’t necessarily a possible thought experiment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/55 "2011-02-24T21:16:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well it absolutely does matter. If you are saying you can tell whether teachers are overpaid by looking at the effect of a 10% drop in wages, then it absolutely matters whether you look in the short or long term. > > If you drop wages 10%, and no one leaves **in the short term** , it says nothing whatsoever about whether the people were overpaid. If, however, they don’t leave **in the long term** then it is indicative that, under a free market analysis, they were overpaid. > > This really isn’t complicated, and goes to the very heart of what the terms short and long term mean. Maybe I wasn’t clear, because I don’t think we’re in disagreement. Note that I said you have to look at “both long and short term” effects, emphasis added. > [@](#): > > Actually, again, it fundamentally matters. If your measurements of student success are relative, then there being no drop in them doesn’t tell you anything at all. If they are absolute, on the other hand, then no reduction in standards when salaries are reduced is a possibility indicator that, under a free market analysis, teachers were overpaid. > > You are right. It’s not rocket science. But seeking to reduce education to deliverables in the same fashion that a profit maximizing corporation (which we have to assume exists for free market analysis to work) isn’t necessarily a possible thought experiment. Sure it is. How do you think private schools operate? There are plenty of service industries out there that have to define customer satisfaction as a set of deliverables, and there is no reason schools can’t do that in the same way. This should be, if it’s not, one of the key things a schools board should be doing. What does it take to give us the best education we can get at the lowest cost. If they can’t, then they should be booted out of office and replaced. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/56 "2011-02-24T21:20:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe I wasn’t clear, because I don’t think we’re in disagreement. Note that I said you have to look at “both long and short term” effects, emphasis added. The short term effects (actually by definition) don’t tell you anything about whether the rate was above the market clearing level. The short term effects are, of course, important, but not to telling you if someone was overpaid. They can’t be. Because the teachers can’t up and leave in that time period, even if they feel they are underpaid… > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sure it is. How do you think private schools operate? As charities. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/57 "2011-02-24T21:32:04Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The short term effects (actually by definition) don’t tell you anything about whether the rate was above the market clearing level. The short term effects are, of course, important, but not to telling you if someone was overpaid. They can’t be. Because the teachers can’t up and leave in that time period, even if they feel they are underpaid… I don’t understand. Why are teachers less able to “up and leave” than any other type of worker? But there’s no reason that a state might have to ask teachers to take a temporary pay cut if they think the problems are short term. > [@](#): > > As charities. That’s funny. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/58 "2011-02-24T21:41:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t understand. Why are teachers less able to “up and leave” than any other type of worker? But there’s no reason that a state might have to ask teachers to take a temporary pay cut if they think the problems are short term. They’re not necessarily - but that’s not what I am saying. The short term is the time overwhich you can’t change the inputs. Teachers being an input here, under our crazy attempt to apply free market analysis to a non-free market situation. You could actually argue they are less able to upa nd leave if you think their skills are more specialized. And I am nto talking about the PAY CUT being short term - but that a permanent pay cut may have different effects in the long and the short term. In other words, if you slash teachers pay, you won’t see an outflow of teachers the next day. You may not even see one the next semester. But in 5 years time (number of years chosen unscientifically as an example), that is when you need to look to see if your pay cut showed teachers were overpaid or not. It’s really simple economics. Compare it to an increase in the price of gas. My car is a gas guzzler. If gas were to double overnight, I wouldn’t stop driving. I already drive a very small amount - 7 miles to work each day and back, and probably 20 miles total on weekends. But you can bet your bottom dollar than in 4 years or so when I am ready to buy a new car, if gas prices remained at that level, I wouldn’t buy a car that gets around 20 highway miles to the gallon. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/59 "2011-02-24T21:53:48Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (b) The present high deficit is, all hope, a brief anamoly due to the severe slump. You seem not to acknowledge that. This is not even close to true. Pre-slump, Bush ran massive deficits even if the Iraq costs are ignored. Except for the last two years of the 1990s, we have run a deficit every year for decades, getting higher and higher every year. Obama’s latest budget assumes robust growth starting next year and continuing for a decade, and still never comes even close to closing the gap. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431/60 "2011-02-24T22:42:42Z")
> [@furt](#): > > [QUOTE=septimus] > > “(b) The present high deficit is, all hope, a brief anomaly due to the severe slump. You seem not to acknowledge that.” This is not even close to true. Pre-slump, Bush ran massive deficits even if the Iraq costs are ignored. Except for the last two years of the 1990s, we have run a deficit every year for decades, getting higher and higher every year. [/QUOTE] 😕 😕 GWB’s annual deficit averaged $250 billion ballpark and never exceeded $500 billion. The 2009 and 2010 deficits were $1400 and $1500 billion respectively. 😕 😕 Granted, even $250 billion (contrary to Mr. Stone’s opinion) isn’t “chump change” but the quote extracted was from a discussion of the much larger figure. I don’t know how to reconcile your comment except with innumeracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-the-rich-and-the-middle-class/572431.md?page=4)