# A Questionable British Gesture **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 4, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584 "2004-06-04T04:30:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/21 "2004-06-04T14:31:04Z")
When I was about 13, snide young men would sometimes hold up the index and ring fingers, saying, “Read between the lines.” Sort of a digital minced oath. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/22 "2004-06-04T14:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > English knights would wave their two fingers at the French, showing off about their superior archery. I’m not sure the _knights_ would do so - the bow was a ‘low’ weapon more fit for peasants, whom the mounted nobility sometimes to _rode over_ in their rush to charge the enemy. The archers _themselves_ might make such a sign, but if such a sign was visible then they were likely within _range_, where casting insults would not be as effective as casting arrows with a 6 inch spike on the end. Is that genuinely where the gesture originated? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/23 "2004-06-04T15:04:52Z")
No, that is not where the gesture originated. There are a number of theories, but that one is a joke. According to Desmond Morris, in all liklihood the gesture uses the two fingers to represent spread lags. Seeing as how variations of the gesture involve flicking the tongue between the “legs,” this appears to be a valid explanation. For contemporary examples of the gesture, reference the opening credits for _Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season 4 - 7._ Spike makes the gesture towards Xander from a chair, with appropriate facial expression. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/24 "2004-06-04T15:43:46Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > And who took it seriously? I guess my “age of 14” qualification equally applies to all arrested at the mentality of a stroppy teenager. That includes Liam Gallagher. 🙂 A few years ago during a Man United-Leeds match, David Beckham displayed the v-sign to a group of Leeds supporters (who had been singing, um, rather derisively about his wife and his son Brooklyn). Beckham undoubtedly belongs to that same mental age group as Liam et al, but I seem to remember the FA got in a bit of a huff about it (I don’t recall if they fined him or not). ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/25 "2004-06-04T16:34:29Z")
So all the hippies making peace signs back in the sixties were rudely insulting British people everywhere? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/26 "2004-06-04T16:43:06Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > So all the hippies making peace signs back in the sixties were rudely insulting British people everywhere? Palm in = rude, palm out = peace. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/27 "2004-06-04T17:30:23Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Simple. Two fingers on one hand (UK insult) and one finger on the other hand (US insult). I think the middle and index finger are considered as rude as just the middle finger when raised and shown with the palm towards the person throwing the insult in the UK :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/28 "2004-06-04T17:38:36Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Palm in = rude, palm out = peace. Or other interpretations - I don’t think [this guy](http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/images/4237n060.jpg) intended it as a particularly peaceful gesture. Not to mention [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/c/c7/Nixon-depart.png). To make use of the rude gesture version, it helps to accompany it with an upsweeping motion of the hand, or at least that seems to be the way it is usually depicted, rather than just holding the two fingers out. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/29 "2004-06-04T17:54:52Z")
According to [Uncle Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a980904.html), the middle finger as an insulting gesture goes back to the Roman empire. My WAG is that the second finger was used to tone down the gesture and by kids who would say ‘But, I didn’t give Bobby the finger. See, I have two fingers up.’ ---
**Author:** ![cabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@cabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cabdude)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/30 "2004-06-05T00:25:01Z")
Anyone heard the story about Churchill using the v-sign during World War Two? He apparently used it in public to signify v for victory. His aides later politely pointed out that the sign had another slightly more rude meaning. Churchill said he knew exactly what it meant and fully intended the double meaning for the Germans benefit. Not sure if it’s true, though. ---
**Author:** ![PastAllReason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@PastAllReason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastAllReason)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/31 "2004-06-05T00:44:26Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > For contemporary examples of the gesture, reference the opening credits for _Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season 4 - 7._ Spike makes the gesture towards Xander from a chair, with appropriate facial expression. 😃 Indeed he does! Until now, I didn’t know what that meant. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/32 "2004-06-05T01:16:17Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I think the middle and index finger are considered as rude as just the middle finger when raised and shown with the palm towards the person throwing the insult in the UK Er… Yes? :dubious: I don’t think I would deny that, and neither was my post implying such. Though to be honest, I’m not sure what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/33 "2004-06-05T01:37:11Z")
> [@cabdude](#): > > Anyone heard the story about Churchill using the v-sign during World War Two? > > He apparently used it in public to signify v for victory. His aides later politely pointed out that the sign had another slightly more rude meaning. Churchill said he knew exactly what it meant and fully intended the double meaning for the Germans benefit. > > Not sure if it’s true, though. Follow my link above. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/34 "2004-06-05T01:58:07Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Er… Yes? :dubious: > > I don’t think I would deny that, and neither was my post implying such. Though to be honest, I’m not sure what you’re saying. Sorry I didn’t know when you labelled one a UK gesture and the other a US gesture if you meant they originated or were only offensive in those places. As you implied :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![cabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@cabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cabdude)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/35 "2004-06-05T02:21:33Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > Follow my link above. Yes - I know Churchill used the v for victory sign - try [this](http://www.ucc.uconn.edu/~ww2oh/Image2.gif) one with the palm inwards. The question I was posing was whether the story about the aides, et al, was true. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/36 "2004-06-05T10:00:44Z")
> [@cabdude](#): > > Yes - I know Churchill used the v for victory sign - try [this](http://www.ucc.uconn.edu/~ww2oh/Image2.gif) one with the palm inwards. The question I was posing was whether the story about the aides, et al, was true. The story I heard was that he started using it the ‘rude’ way, but after a while he was advised to turn his hand round by 180 degrees to avoid insulting the British public (see previous Churchill picture). ---
**Author:** ![peculiar\_hailstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@peculiar\_hailstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peculiar_hailstone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584/37 "2004-06-06T17:31:21Z")
as far as the thrid finger for emphasis goes, there’s a joke here in north America, where you waggle all 5 fingers on one hand (palm in) towards someone and say, “What’s this?” and they say, “I don’t know.” Then you flip them just the middle finger and say, “Five of these!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-questionable-british-gesture/248584.md?page=1)