# A quick little English grammar lesson... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 13, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907 "2020-02-13T22:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/21 "2020-02-14T05:46:06Z")
My pet peef is the people who use “staunch” and “stanch” interchangeably. I see this is news articles or op-eds a lot. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/22 "2020-02-14T06:56:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’d be curious to find examples of dialects that differentiate to, too, and two and their, they’re, and there. Can you give me examples? Furthermore, you have probably heard “to” pronounced with a schwa or an ʊ, or even “ter”, not just on Talk Like a Pirate Day. I admit “two” and “too” are usually pretty homophonic, except for the aforementioned Scots and similar dialects. “They’re” is pronounced “ðeɪɚ” by some Americans according to Wiktionary; I want to say I’ve heard it, but cannot name the place off the top of my head. That leaves “their” vs “there”; again I want to say I’ve heard “there” sometimes pronounced with a short vowel (“ðə”) ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/23 "2020-02-14T07:47:44Z")
> [@dan39](#): > > Is there anyone out there that is bothered by… Don’t you mean, “Is there anyone out there WHO is bothered by…”? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/24 "2020-02-14T08:13:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’d be curious to find examples of dialects that differentiate to, too, and two and their, they’re, and there. Can you give me examples? Where I come from in the north-east of England it is common enough for “to” to be merely a short “tuh” sound, i.e. “I’m off t’school”. The ending sound of the number “two” is much closer too an “ow” sound (as in the expression of pain). In the same area “there” becomes something more akin thee-er" and “their” is pretty much indistinguisable from the word “the”. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/25 "2020-02-14T08:59:35Z")
> [@Novelty Bubble](#): > > Where I come from in the north-east of England > [@DPRK](#): > > Furthermore, you have probably heard “to” pronounced with a schwa or an ʊ, or even “ter”, not just on Talk Like a Pirate Day. . . . Not “probably” and not just in the north-east of English – but rather, most of the time, _ **in general** _. In _standard English_, _to_ is mostly not pronounced the same as _two_ or _too_, because it’s seldom stressed. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/26 "2020-02-14T09:16:22Z")
> [@dan39](#): > > It seems that today, it doesn’t matter how you spell something, just as long as you make it sound like the way it’s supposed to, you’ll still get a good grade. Do you have _ **ANY** _ data at all to support this assertion? Specifically, do you have _ **ANY** _ data at all which show that “today” people do not spell as well as they did “before,” or that spelling is not taught as much as “before today”? I think instead of a “little English grammar lesson” (and, no, spelling is _not_ grammar) what we might need here is a “big lesson” in how to avoid baseless and unsubstantiated assertions comparing “nowadays” and the “good old days.” ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/27 "2020-02-14T12:31:53Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I think you have a typo there. Bad if it’s in a thread about grammar or punctuation. > [@dan39](#): > > Yup, you’re correct, but someone replied and I could no longer edit the message. I did catch it though! For the life of me, I don’t see it in this sentence. What is the typo? I only see “too” but that is intentionally misspelled. ---
**Author:** ![Calavera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calavera/32/70_2.png) [@Calavera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calavera)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/28 "2020-02-14T12:37:17Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > For the life of me, I don’t see it in this sentence. What is the typo? I only see “too” but that is intentionally misspelled. (not “ **to** , two or too”) ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/29 "2020-02-14T12:49:46Z")
> [@Calavera](#): > > (not “ **to** , two or too”) Ha! Wow, good catch. As for the OP, those seem to be the classic misspellings. Even in school, teachers try to stress the differences among the various homophones such as: there, their, they’re; through, thru, threw; to, too, two; hour, are, our; weak, week; knew, new; peace, piece, weather, whether, etc. I think that’s been a battle since the beginning of English. But the one that I’ve been seeing recently has been blowing my mind. I see it mostly on Facebook and it drives me crazy. I have to skip reading the rest of the post when I see it. It’s mostly found in the _For Sale_ type group pages. Sell vs. Sale When the fuck did this ever become an issue? It seems like everyone is getting this wrong all of a sudden. Am I crazy, or has this always been a problem? Has anyone else noticed this? > [@](#): > > For Sell: > I moved into a smaller apartment, so I need to sale this couch fast ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/30 "2020-02-14T13:14:06Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Ha! Wow, good catch. And it really should be: (not “two” or “too”). or (not _two_ or _too_). At any rate, the “or” should be set off from the words being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/31 "2020-02-14T13:14:38Z")
> [@dan39](#): > > Yup, you’re correct, but someone replied and I could no longer edit the message. I did catch it though! The edit window closes after five minutes, not after the first response. Your edit window closed before the first reply. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/32 "2020-02-14T13:18:20Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > I too have a double standard. I have a nephew who frequently posts on FB and his spiling an grammer ar atroshus, but it is not for me to correct him and I think doing so would be akin to bullying. > > Many people on forums, even, believe it or not, on this forum, make mistakes but it is generally considered bad form to correct them. In any case, one can be sure that Muphry’s law will come into effect if one does. You misspelled “Murphy’s” (although I suspect that was done deliberately, for humorous effect). More to the point, you misspelled “Gaudere’s.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/33 "2020-02-14T14:40:44Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > You misspelled “Murphy’s” (although I suspect that was done deliberately, for humorous effect). More to the point, you misspelled “Gaudere’s.” “Muphry’s Law” is another name for “Gaudere’s Law.” Outside the Dope, I believe it is the more common usage. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/34 "2020-02-14T17:10:51Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > “They’re”, at least, is sometimes pronounced with an /eɪ/ “ay” sound, so that can differentiate it from “their” and “there.” I’m not sure about distinguishing the other ones. There is an obsolete pronunciation of “two” that includes the “w”, and Scots has “twa,” but that one is spelled differently. > [@DPRK](#): > > Furthermore, you have probably heard “to” pronounced with a schwa or an ʊ, or even “ter”, not just on Talk Like a Pirate Day. I admit “two” and “too” are usually pretty homophonic, except for the aforementioned Scots and similar dialects. > > “They’re” is pronounced “ðeɪɚ” by some Americans according to Wiktionary; I want to say I’ve heard it, but cannot name the place off the top of my head. That leaves “their” vs “there”; again I want to say I’ve heard “there” sometimes pronounced with a short vowel (“ðə”) > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Where I come from in the north-east of England it is common enough for “to” to be merely a short “tuh” sound, i.e. “I’m off t’school”. The ending sound of the number “two” is much closer too an “ow” sound (as in the expression of pain). > In the same area “there” becomes something more akin thee-er" and “their” is pretty much indistinguisable from the word “the”. > [@guizot](#): > > Not “probably” and not just in the north-east of English – but rather, most of the time, _ **in general** _. In _standard English_, _to_ is mostly not pronounced the same as _two_ or _too_, because it’s seldom stressed. I think guizot said it best. The lack of stress (or suppression of endings) in certain words is not technically the same as a dialectal variant, since it is practiced across dialects. It’s possible that someone might write “I gonna t’da’store” to save a few keystrokes but that’s obviously a deliberate move. Wikitionary states that they’re, their, and there are homophones. You might find individual variations but no body of speakers as large as a dialect differentiates them in America. Nitpicking aside, my point was that people will often write the first word that represents a sound used in everyday speech. Whether this is consistent across all users or even consistent from day to day in one person’s usage is irrelevant if it explains a large portion of solecisms. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/35 "2020-02-14T18:04:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > You misspelled “Murphy’s” (although I suspect that was done deliberately, for humorous effect). More to the point, you misspelled “Gaudere’s.” > [@pulykamell](#): > > “Muphry’s Law” is another name for “Gaudere’s Law.” Outside the Dope, I believe it is the more common usage. Huh. TIL, I guess. Ta. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/36 "2020-02-14T19:07:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Wikitionary states that they’re, their, and there are homophones. You might find individual variations but no body of speakers as large as a dialect differentiates them in America. They _can_ be homophones, but you can alternatively pronounce “they’re” as rhyming with “layer”, which you can’t really do with there or their. ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/37 "2020-02-14T19:47:22Z")
> [@dan39](#): > > It kind of does, but I think I got my concern across. I’m not an eloquent speaker, but I know how to spell. LOL! So you’re bothered because Kids Today are confusing or deliberately misusing their/there, it’s/its, passed/past, etc. Your partner who is a teacher says that as long as the point is made, the student gets a good grade, but you are bothered by this idea. YET, right here in the thread YOU started, someone points out a couple of errors (one grammatical, one typo/not paying attention) and YOU say “oh, well, you know what I mean.” Tsk, tsk, tsk. In other words, you’re bothered by errors you notice, but not your own since you are, after all, able to communicate your point. Pot, meet Kettle; Kettle, Pot. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/38 "2020-02-14T20:09:38Z")
My daughter is 34. When she was in first grade and they were starting to write, I asked her teacher about correcting her spelling. The teacher said they taught “Whole Language” with an emphasis on “say what they wanted to say.” Spelling and such would come later. Sadly, I listened to her. My daughter can’t spell worth a darn. Written communication not only tells what you want to say, but it tells something about you by the way you express yourself. It may not be fair, but when I read something that’s full of misspellings or atrocious grammar (not just the stray goof) it makes me wonder about the value of what the writer is trying to convey. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/39 "2020-02-14T21:03:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Spoken language is a different creature than written language. In spoken language to, too, and two are the same sound and so are they’re, their, and there. > > Most online communication tends to mimic spoken English rather than written English. It’s put onto the keyboard by sounds. (It’s and its are also the same sounds.) People are essentially hearing themselves talk to others. > > This may be bothersome to those of us who grew up in a world when all writing needed more or less formal, standard English. You’ll notice , however, that when formal writing is called for, which is almost all cases other than social media, regular, standard written English dominates. Younger people will have no difficulty moving among what will be three varieties of English: spoken, written, and social. I disagree with the last paragraph. The difference between formal writing (as in a formal letter, or a book or academic paper) and informal writing as in social media or casual emails is a matter of style (register). That includes some types of contractions and colloquialisms that one wouldn’t use in more formal contexts, but otherwise spelling is spelling and bad spelling is bad writing in any context. The use of the wrong homophone (especially simple stupid things like “to” vs. “too”) really pisses me off. “Its” vs. “it’s” is also very common. I can overlook the misspelling of a complex word, but homophone misuse is just laziness. And the fact that we see expressions like “should of” and “would of” is evidence that some people – young or otherwise – do in fact have difficulty moving between spoken and written language. And I’ve seen examples of unintentionally hilarious business letters that prove that same point. Grammar is a whole other issue. I’ve become much less rigorous over the years about prescriptive grammar rules and I agree that some of the arbitrary prescriptive rules that are presumably still taught in schools are stupid. But bad grammar is still a thing, and the internet abounds in it, to the point of some postings being nearly or entirely incomprehensible. When I see truly atrocious writing I generally don’t even bother trying to decipher it, on the basis that the writer probably had nothing worthwhile to say anyway. This is not about how some people are better writers than others; it’s about the fact that any native English speaker is capable of writing comprehensibly if they just make the effort to do so. Some people actually claim to be proud of the fact that they don’t give a damn about their writing or what anyone else thinks of it. I think most of that is just an excuse for laziness. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907/40 "2020-02-14T21:06:25Z")
**FairyChatMom** , thanks for returning this to the issue posed in the OP. I thought it was a good topic for discussion I hope the posts taking the OP to task for writing errors will stop now, especially since the OP acknowledged the error way back. Ironically, they’re making the OP’s point: they focused on his spelling, not his message. **FCM** raises a good point about the manner in which children are taught to read and its impact on spelling. I’m not an elementary teacher, but I do think the phonetic approach to reading (as opposed to whole language) tends to produce better spellers. Some people are poor spellers no matter which approach is used. I think we’re still trying to figure out why that is. When it comes to communication, clarity is crucial. **FCM** isn’t alone in finding that errors weaken the writer’s authority. Also, when readers have to decipher writing errors, it forces them to shift their focus away from the ideas the writer is trying to express. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-quick-little-english-grammar-lesson/847907.md?page=3)