# A qustion about record players. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 10, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801 "2017-01-10T05:28:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/1 "2017-01-10T05:28:08Z")
Record Albums played ae 33RPM’s looked like[THIS](http://watermarked.cutcaster.com/cutcaster-photo-100547024-golden-disc-record-album.jpg) The single hit records were much smaller needed these big posts, like[THIS](http://phonojack.com/45/RCA%2045J.jpg) There’s even [THIS](http://www.turntablebasics.com/images/45adapter.jpg) iconic adapter. What’s up with that? There was a switch on the side to regulate the RPM’s; I think that was how we figured out that Alvin and the Chipmunks was recorded by a barbershop quartet at 33RPM and played back at89RPM. So, the hole in the middle didn’t determine the rotational speed, why the difference? Bonus 'cause it’s late and I’m headed for the shower, what did a 78RPM record even look like? ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/2 "2017-01-10T05:39:21Z")
They were large like the 33 rpm LPs with the same small hole. All the 78s I remember were one sided and quite thick. Dennis ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/3 "2017-01-10T05:50:02Z")
78s were generally 10 or 12 inches in diameter, with a small spindle hole. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/4 "2017-01-10T05:50:06Z")
Size comparison of 33s, 45s, and 78s: [![](http://www.history-of-rock.com/sizes.jpg) ](http://www.history-of-rock.com/sizes.jpg) Cecil wrote a column on the reason for the different sizes way back in 1976. Short version: different companies developed the 33 and the 45, and hence, different sized spindle holes. > **[Why are vinyl record speeds 33, 45, and 78 RPM? And why the big hole in 45s?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341404/why-are-vinyl-record-speeds-33-45-and-78-rpm-and-why-the-big-hole-in-45s)** ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/5 "2017-01-10T05:57:22Z")
Okay, Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/6 "2017-01-10T06:52:17Z")
My family’s old 78s were double-sided. Also, made of something like baked clay: extremely fragile. I still have some…and broke one last year. Damn. BTW, computer turntables are the berries! Get one soonest and convert your records to digital files. There are even scratch-and-pop removal filters. Greatest thing in the world! ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/7 "2017-01-10T07:13:11Z")
Yep, 78’s were like fine China as in fragile as hell. You wouldn’t think something that thick would crack just spinning on a turn table but some of ours did. Even putting them in the sleeve too quickly would break one. [Amusing](https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/187qrwceew3p2jpg.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/8 "2017-01-10T08:18:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > My family’s old 78s were double-sided. Also, made of something like baked clay: You may be thinking of [Bakelite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite), although this wasn’t actually used. Shellac and filler was the usual concoction, where the filler could include fine rock dust or wood fibres. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/9 "2017-01-10T08:30:29Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > So, the hole in the middle didn’t determine the rotational speed, why the difference? I believe the large hole in 7 inch singles was a design feature to accommodate automatic handling and mounting of the discs in jukeboxes and on record players where a number of discs could be stacked to be automatically played in sequence. Not all 7 inch singles had the larger hole - some had a knockout (like [this](http://www.xplorebritain.co.uk/imagesvinylg/grapefruit-dear-delilah.jpg)) so they could be converted. Some just had the smaller hole, the same as 12 inch albums - for these, companies stocking jukeboxes had to cut a larger hole with a heated tool. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/10 "2017-01-10T08:38:52Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Shellac and filler was the usual concoction, where the filler could include fine rock dust or wood fibres. In my unruly ( barely ) youth we disliked finding 78’s while dumpster diving because when flung out in the middle of the road they didn’t shatter satisfyingly into a hundred pieces like 33s. Instead they disappointingly hung together with their wood-fiber filler and had to be laboriously hand-destroyed to sate our lust for random destruction. It was like trying to break old-fashioned car safety glass with that plastic layer, another annoyingly shatter-resistant material when you are 11 or 12. I sometimes look back on those days and shudder as I wonder if we ever destroyed valuable rarities. Probably not, since they _were_ plundered from dumpsters. But you never know. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/11 "2017-01-10T09:53:23Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Not all 7 inch singles had the larger hole - some had a knockout (like [this](http://www.xplorebritain.co.uk/imagesvinylg/grapefruit-dear-delilah.jpg)) so they could be converted. Some just had the smaller hole, the same as 12 inch albums - for these, companies stocking jukeboxes had to cut a larger hole with a heated tool. Forgot to mention - the process is called ‘dinking’ - and was done with a variety of different tools such as [this](http://www.jukebox-uk.biz/images/stories/dinkersmall.jpg) (a manual holesaw) or [this](http://thumbs2.picclick.com/d/l400/pict/222336094065_/JUKEBOX-BIRTHDAY-PRESENT-LARGE-HOLE-CUTTER-FOR-45s.jpg) (a screw-based shear die) I had thought that heated press was sometimes used, as I have seen examples of singles where there was evidence of melting around the hole, but that might just have been caused by friction from a circular holesaw or some such. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/12 "2017-01-10T12:16:24Z")
On a tour round the EMI record factory in North London, I discovered that LPs were always made from virgin plastic, while 45s were mostly made from recycled 78s that hadn’t sold. I also found that the sleeves cost more to produce than the records, so while they kept a large stock of records, sleeves were only printed in relatively short runs. In the warehouse, the records were stood on edge with no protection, the pickers would put them in a plain inner sleeve and then the outer before they were sent to the shops. All in all it was an impressive operation. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/13 "2017-01-10T13:45:45Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I sometimes look back on those days and shudder as I wonder if we ever destroyed valuable rarities. Probably not, since they _were_ plundered from dumpsters. But you never know. Some of them are probably valuable today _because_ most of them have been thrown in dumpsters. ---
**Author:** ![Huvudtvatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Huvudtvatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huvudtvatt)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/14 "2017-01-10T13:57:25Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > 45s were mostly made from recycled 78s that hadn’t sold. This can’t be right. Do you mean recycled 33s? Because 78s were made of shellac and 45 were vinyl or styrene - completely different materials. ---
**Author:** ![Huvudtvatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Huvudtvatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huvudtvatt)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/15 "2017-01-10T14:09:07Z")
I may add that the big hole on 45s was much more common in America. I think all my american 45s from the sixties have the big hole, and all European have the punch-out hole or more rarely just the small hole. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/16 "2017-01-10T14:52:55Z")
> [@Huvudtvatt](#): > > This can’t be right. Do you mean recycled 33s? Because 78s were made of shellac and 45 were vinyl or styrene - completely different materials. Yes, and you can make an excellent black shellac for Japaning by dissolving old 78s in alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/17 "2017-01-10T15:36:01Z")
Another option was the extended play 45 (designated EP), which had up to seven and a half minutes of music on a side and a small hole in the middle. It was a 7" disc, but had finer grooves along with better sound compression. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/18 "2017-01-10T15:37:55Z")
> [@Huvudtvatt](#): > > I may add that the big hole on 45s was much more common in America. I think all my american 45s from the sixties have the big hole, and all European have the punch-out hole or more rarely just the small hole. Those my parents or me bought in Spain have the big hole; the handful I got in Ireland have small holes (several with the knockout Mangetout describes). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/19 "2017-01-10T15:43:20Z")
Blame Steve Jobs. Not really, but just in the way Apple has come out with proprietary equipment, so was the 45 invented with its big hole. > [@](#): > > While the LP promised up to 22 minutes of uninterrupted music per side, RCA’s crowed that their 45s could be stacked on the special tall, fat spindle—about 6 inches high—that was exclusive to RCA-manufactured turntables. Once a side of a 45 finished playing after five or six minutes, the tone arm moved away long enough for the next record to drop down onto the platter. The tone arm then swung back into place and the music would continue. With the ability to stack up to ten 45s on the RCA spindle, it was theoretically possible for the music to continue for a full hour without human intervention. > > RCA wanted their new format to crush Columbia’s LPs, so they began selling turntables that could only play 45s. **The thinking was that once someone bought one of these turntables with the fat spindles, they were theoretically locked into buying music in that format from then on.** It was just like the future VHS/Beta and Blu-ray/HD-Video wars. > > But there was a more scientific reason for the larger hole. When a new 45 dropped from the spindle onto the turntable, it was required to spin up from a dead stop to 45 RPM very quickly. This torque tended to cause the small holes to go out-of-round very quickly, causing record to wobble as it spun. The larger hole allowed the sudden rotational force to be distributed over a longer path—pi x 1.5 = about 4.712 inches—reducing wear and allowing the hole to stay round longer. > **[Why is the Hole on a 45 RPM Record So Big? | Alan Cross](https://www.ajournalofmusicalthings.com/why-is-the-hole-on-a-45-rpm-record-so-big/)** > > Here is a fundamental question that every vinyl lover has asked:  why is the hole of a 7-inch single so big? For the first fifty years of the turntable’s existence, the spindle on which you placed the record was a standard size: ... Bolding mine. It seems Jobs had taken a lesson from RCA. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801/20 "2017-01-10T16:43:22Z")
Note that not all 33 1/3 records were LPs. There were 33 1/3 singles/EPs and such. I remember several kiddie records when I was little. (And then regular 7" EPs when I got older.) As mentioned, there were also longer versions of 45s. So it wasn’t all clearcut- one for albums, the other for singles. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-qustion-about-record-players/776801.md?page=2)