# A rant about the government, but not Bush or Democrats. (Cuba baseball ban) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 15, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686 "2005-12-15T03:21:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/21 "2005-12-16T04:58:58Z")
> [@Plynck](#): > > We will never see a softening of our relationship with Cuba as long as Fidel is alive. Maybe not then. It won’t be the ex-pats who take power in Cuba when Castro dies, it will be somebody who is already there. The ex-pats are living in a world long ago and far away, that doesn’t exist anymore. This decision by Treasury is based on nothing but malice. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/22 "2005-12-16T05:15:01Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Maybe not then. It won’t be the ex-pats who take power in Cuba when Castro dies, it will be somebody who is already there. The ex-pats are living in a world long ago and far away, that doesn’t exist anymore. > > This decision by Treasury is based on nothing but malice. The current government of Cuba should have nothing to do with it. This is an event sanctioned by the International BAseball Federation headquartered in Switzerland, i.e. it’s not just MLB putting this on. This should be treated no differently than the Olympics or the World Cup. I really hope someone higher up on the food chain can overturn this decision. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/23 "2005-12-16T05:33:55Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > The current government of Cuba should have nothing to do with it. This is an event sanctioned by the International BAseball Federation headquartered in Switzerland, i.e. it’s not just MLB putting this on. This should be treated no differently than the Olympics or the World Cup. > > I really hope someone higher up on the food chain can overturn this decision. Someone higher on the “food chain” made this decision. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/24 "2005-12-16T05:46:13Z")
This “World Cup” or “Tournament” or whatever the official term for it is is a very different animal than the Olympics or other amateur events. Major League Baseball is fronting the money for this event. The games are to be televised and the profits somehow divided between the teams. Since the Cuban players contend that they are amateurs (even though they are paid to play by the Cuban government), the result would be that Major League Baseball, Inc., an American corporation, would be paying a significant amount of money to the Cuban government. That’s illegal under the terms of the trade embargo with Cuba. Major League Baseball, Inc., requested a waiver from the Treasury Department and the request was denied. So there’s the problem. Personally, I’d like to see the Cubans participate, but it probably ain’t gonna happen. My information comes from articles on the subject published in _The Miami Herald_. (subscription required) ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/25 "2005-12-16T06:08:55Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Since the Cuban players contend that they are amateurs (even though they are paid to play by the Cuban government), the result would be that Major League Baseball, Inc., an American corporation, would be paying a significant amount of money to the Cuban government. That’s illegal under the terms of the trade embargo with Cuba. Major League Baseball, Inc., requested a waiver from the Treasury Department and the request was denied. And how, exactly, is that different from when the Baltimore Orioles Professional Ball Club, a member of Major League Baseball, Inc. played 2 games against the Cuban National Team, one of which was played in Havana? What made those games so different from the WBC? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/26 "2005-12-16T06:46:30Z")
One obvious solution, which MLB should consider, is not holding the WBC in the United States. If the country’s government is too hostile and uncooperative for the tournament to proceed as planned, simply hold it in Canada or Mexico. People will still watch it on TV. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/27 "2005-12-16T06:48:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > One obvious solution, which MLB should consider, is not holding the WBC in the United States. If the country’s government is too hostile and uncooperative for the tournament to proceed as planned, simply hold it in Canada or Mexico. People will still watch it on TV. The problem with that is the Treasury Department has decided that the embargo applies to “persons subject to American jurisdiction” even if they’re outside the country. And really, the necessary facilities don’t exist outside the U.S. right now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/28 "2005-12-16T07:01:09Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > And how, exactly, is that different from when the Baltimore Orioles Professional Ball Club, a member of Major League Baseball, Inc. played 2 games against the Cuban National Team, one of which was played in Havana? What made those games so different from the WBC? Obviously, I don’t know the financial details, but I assume that the Baltimore Orioles **did not pay money directly to the Cuban government**. Maybe the O’s kept the gate from the game that was played in the 'States, and Cuba got the gate from the game in Havana. As stated above, MLB planned to **pay money to the Cuban government** for this proposed tournament. See the difference? Legally, it’s a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/29 "2005-12-16T07:27:23Z")
Apparently, the profits from the Orioles-Cuba games went to charity. [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin\_america/jan-june99/albright\_1-5.html](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/jan-june99/albright_1-5.html) Regardless of where the money might be going, the U.S. government needs to realize there’s a tremendous opportunity here to expose Cuba to “the almighty forces of democracy” and that it will be beneficial in the long run to let them play. I wonder if any of this is related to the fear that we might lose to them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/30 "2005-12-16T08:27:00Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > The problem with that is the Treasury Department has decided that the embargo applies to “persons subject to American jurisdiction” even if they’re outside the country. > > And really, the necessary facilities don’t exist outside the U.S. right now. Surely you jest? We’re not talking about hosting an entire regular season here. If need be you could hold the entire WBC in two or three ballparks. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/31 "2005-12-16T08:31:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Surely you jest? We’re not talking about hosting an entire regular season here. If need be you could hold the entire WBC in two or three ballparks. If you think Italy v. Panama is going to sell out the SkyDome, then… I don’t know what to say. Besides, indoor baseball blows, and outside of Florida, Arizona and SoCal, there’s not many major-league caliber ballparks that are playable in March. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/32 "2005-12-16T09:54:45Z")
And now Peter Angelos, owner of the Orioles and broker of the 1999 deal, is going to assist MLB with their attempts to get Cuba back in. The plot thickens… > **[Baseball Set to Continue Fighting Ban of Cuba (Published 2005)](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/sports/baseball/baseball-set-to-continue-fighting-ban-of-cuba.html)** > > Major League Baseball will continue0 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/33 "2005-12-16T10:03:25Z")
I would like to see the Cuban team in action, personally I’m a bit skeptical about the whole WBC. I’m a little disappointed with how ridiculously some of the nationality issues are being resolved. Mike Piazza playing for the Italian team? That’s beyond understanding. The guy grew up in America, he’s not even part of Italian culture. I think it’s _stretching it_ for A-Rod to play for the Dominicans, since he was born in the States and spent his entire life here save for four years (age 4 to age 8) but, at least he did spend some time in the D.R. as he was growing up, and his parents were both born in the D.R. I’m not sure about Piazza’s mother but Piazza’s father was also born in the United States. And grew up in Norristown PA with Tommy Lasorda (it’s widely believed that Vince’s ties to Lasorda is the only reason Piazza was drafted as Piazza didn’t impress much of anyone prior to actually getting into the pros.) So it’s not even like this guy’s PARENTS were immigrants. This guy has an Italian last name, basically, and he’s playing on the Italian World Cup team. Really just boggles my mind. Back to the issue with Cuba, I’ve repeatedly read that current MLBers from Cuba would not play for the Cuban team. From what I understand because they’re defectors it wouldn’t be permitted. Personally I think Cuba _may_ be overrated. Because some Cuban superstars have been enormous flops in the United States. Jose Contreras was supposed to be the second coming, and he’s been nothing but a disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/34 "2005-12-16T10:10:48Z")
Piazza’s playing for Italy because his grandfather had an Italian passport (which would be enough to let him play Euro soccer without a work permit.) Italy has a domestic league, but I’ve heard it rated as being somewhere between high-A and AA. Cuba would have a tough pool, with Panama and Puerto Rico (playing at home!) to get past. I think they could get to the second round, though. ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/35 "2005-12-16T12:55:28Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > If you think Italy v. Panama is going to sell out the SkyDome, then… I don’t know what to say. Besides, indoor baseball blows, and outside of Florida, Arizona and SoCal, there’s not many major-league caliber ballparks that are playable in March. Well, considering that the first 2 rounds of the WBC tournament (in Cuba’s bracket) are scheduled to be played in San Juan at Hiram Bithorn Stadium, I think they’ve already got the ‘where’ part covered. That park should be just fine in March. The American sites for round one (Orlando-Disney’s Wide World of Sports and Arizona-Chase Field & Scottsdale Stadium ) don’t appear to be Major League sites anyway. Actually, do they still call the Diamondbacks’ park “Bank One Ballpark?” Anyway, I hope they get this figured out. I’d like to see Cuba involved. ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/36 "2005-12-16T13:01:25Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Personally I think Cuba _may_ be overrated. Because some Cuban superstars have been enormous flops in the United States. Jose Contreras was supposed to be the second coming, and he’s been nothing but a disappointment. Disappointment? Did you stop watching the playoffs last year after the Yankees were ousted? You’re talking about the same Contreras that was the ace of the World Series champion’s pitching staff, right? I think Piazza on the Italian team is just to help that team. If Italy’s team is somewhere in the AA range talent-wise & could use the help, I don’t have a problem with it, especially after learning what **brianjedi** shared about requirements to play Euro soccer. I’d rather see A-Rod playing shortstop for The Dominican republic than 3rd base for America. It’s more interesting that way. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/37 "2005-12-16T15:27:09Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > This “World Cup” or “Tournament” or whatever the official term for it is is a very different animal than the Olympics or other amateur events. How do you figure that? It seems to me that the IOC is as big a group of money grubbers as anyone else in sports. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/38 "2005-12-16T21:09:43Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > How do you figure that? It seems to me that the IOC is as big a group of money grubbers as anyone else in sports. Do you typically post without reading the whole thread, or is your reading comprehension impaired? I explained “how I figure that” in posts #24 and #28 of this thread. (You even quoted part of post#24!) If you’re not willing to go back and read, the short version is that there’s a legal problem with the way this tournament’s set up that the IOC doesn’t encounter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/39 "2005-12-16T21:25:44Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > Regardless of where the money might be going, the U.S. government needs to realize there’s a tremendous opportunity here to expose Cuba to “the almighty forces of democracy” and that it will be beneficial in the long run to let them play. Your point is worthy of consideration. However, as best I can tell from articles published in the media, letting them play will violate the laws that are intended to enforce the embargo of Cuba. I don’t think congress will amend said laws for a baseball tournament. Too much political risk for very little gain. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686/40 "2005-12-16T21:33:28Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Your point is worthy of consideration. However, as best I can tell from articles published in the media, letting them play will violate the laws that are intended to enforce the embargo of Cuba. I don’t think congress will amend said laws for a baseball tournament. Too much political risk for very little gain. Do you see where it might make the US look petty to the other countries participating? Jim [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rant-about-the-government-but-not-bush-or-democrats-cuba-baseball-ban/335686.md?page=3)