# A rather sad overlord \[DevNull puts forth his political beliefs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2007, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823 "2007-07-07T08:01:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/301 "2007-07-20T22:15:00Z")
The same way much time and effort could’ve been spared if you’d simply stated “each time I use the word ‘liberal’ I really mean what is today commonly referred to as ‘libertarian’,” and we had said “okay” and moved on from there (or not)—based on your last few posts I believe we can save a lot of time by assuming that your term “leftist ideal” is functionally equivalent to “anything I personally disagree with,” and a “leftist” is anyone who does one of those things, regardless of how centrist or even far-right they may be in every other regard. At any rate, I assert that if you’ve enlarged the term “leftist” to include George W. Bush, you have stretched it like an old sweater now too floppy and ridiculous-looking to ever again be worn with a straight face. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/302 "2007-07-20T22:39:10Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] At any rate, I assert that if you’ve enlarged the term “leftist” to include George W. Bush, you have stretched it like an old sweater now too floppy and ridiculous-looking to ever again be worn with a straight face. [/QUOTE] It is not hard to look up the term leftist or “left-wing” in the dictionary. As with the term “liberal”, I adhere to the definition of “leftist” contained within any major English language dictionary. I do not mind if other people choose to make up another definition for it as long as they do not accuse me of speaking in those made up terms. It would be easy for me to pick and choose definitions based on sources outside major English dictionaries but that would be cheating myself out of being honest when honesty is called for. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/303 "2007-07-20T22:42:01Z")
I agree with Vinyl. I think it’s becoming clear that DevNull is a Libertarian of some form and is using the term “liberal” to mean an active government. By that definition, I suppose you can define FDR, Bush, Reagan, Hitler, and Stalin all as “liberals”. But I don’t think it’s fair to use an existing term with an established meaning and redefine it. I will give DevNull some credit. While his terminology is vague and his knowledge of history is weak, at least he is willing to step forward and defend his ideas unlike some drive-by posters we’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/304 "2007-07-20T22:48:28Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] While his terminology is vague and his knowledge of history is weak [/QUOTE] If attacking a poster makes you feel better, I will forgive you for it personally, although I will not forget you need to resort to personal attacks. Breaking the rules is not forgivable, in my book, until penance for the offense is made. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/305 "2007-07-20T23:11:40Z")
Dev, my acknowledging your terminology is vague and your knowledge of history is weak is not a personal attack. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/306 "2007-07-20T23:12:13Z")
> [@](#): > > It is not hard to look up the term leftist or “left-wing” in the dictionary. I did. I found no definition so broad as to include everything you have labelled ‘unamerican’ in this thread. Is leftism the only political philosophy you recognize a threat to American liberty? [QUOTE=DevNull] If attacking a poster makes you feel better, I will forgive you for it personally, although I will not forget you need to resort to personal attacks. Breaking the rules is not forgivable, in my book, until penance for the offense is made. [/QUOTE] I saw no personal attacks in \*\*Nemo’s \*\* post. You have repeatedly fabricated historical references and meanings for words to suit your purposes. Nothing personal in observing that. It has long been the policy in GD that calling someone a liar, or crazy, are not personal insults, despite what definition you may find in your favorite dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/307 "2007-07-20T23:33:17Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] I did. I found no definition so broad as to include everything you have labelled ‘unamerican’ in this thread. Is leftism the only political philosophy you recognize a threat to American liberty? [/quote] I stated they were leftist ideals. You do not find a laundry list of leftist ideals under a definition in any dictionary. You would have to turn to an encyclopedia to read up on leftist ideals. Leftists ideals are not compatible with the Constitution of the USA. I realize this is a global board so I expect some of my debate opponents to not understand my lifelong held angle, but anyone who has read and respects the Constitution of the USA should understand clearly. > [@](#): > > You have repeatedly fabricated historical references and meanings for words to suit your purposes. Nothing personal in observing that. Nothing personal taken except that I do not understand when I may have fabricated any historical references. I understand that I have been challenged regarding a “certain number” of Jews on the forefront of the socialist movement in Germany, but the I consider the word “forefront” to be a powerful qualifier to which I did not agree that there were any Jews who earned such a powerful designation. I eventually explained this and also initially asked what the number was and confessed that I have not discovered any on the forefront. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/308 "2007-07-21T00:16:30Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] The poisoning of weaker minds by the leftist ideals espoused in Moore’s latest movies is of an overwhelmingly anti-Constitutional bend… you know as in the Constitution has failed the People in the arena of health care and the USA is beaten by socialist health care systems. [/QUOTE] It is the **market,** not the Constitution, that has failed the American people (or at least performed suboptimally) in the arena of health care. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/309 "2007-07-21T00:18:19Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I agree with Vinyl. I think it’s becoming clear that DevNull is a Libertarian of some form and is using the term “liberal” to mean an active government. [/QUOTE] Quite the reverse, he is using “liberal” to mean “libertarian” – an etymologically/historically sound, but nevertheless anachronistic and indefensible, usage. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/310 "2007-07-21T00:24:55Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] It has long been the policy in GD that calling someone a liar, or crazy, are not personal insults, despite what definition you may find in your favorite dictionary. [/QUOTE] I have not been come across that policy regarding the GD sig, but I will take your word for it simply because I do not plan to implement those self-preservation tactics so it cannot hurt to concede. Also if it is truly the case, I apologize to anyone who may have been caught up in my misunderstanding. I come from a time and a place in online communication where calling someone a liar or crazy or weak was considered a personal insult. [QUOTE=Fear Itself] Is leftism the only political philosophy you recognize a threat to American liberty? [/QUOTE] No. Either there are a majority of devil’s advocates here who are interested in shaking down leftism or there are a majority of leftists so that is what it appears as. You will have to take my word for it (or search for it) that I half-jokingly stated that 90% of leftist ideals are fully incompatible with the Constitution of the USA and that 89% of current conservative ideals are also fully incompatible with the Constitution of the USA. The kicker being that leftism is NOT the opposite of conservatism because conservatism is relevant to the current socio-political, legal climate and liberalism (classic liberalism, if you will) is concerned with individual freedom and conservative is in relation to anything in the legal or political sense whether collective or individual. There are few ideologies in any respect that are compatible with individual freedom and/or the Constitution of the United States of America. A simple reading of the Constitution will reveal that fact. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/311 "2007-07-21T00:34:16Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] Appeasement is a leftist ideal and the administration of president GW Bush is doing quite well on appeasing his opponents in every theatre. [/quote] In the Middle East?! **How?!** Apart from SA and Pakistan, which are supposedly our allies, what has Bush done to “appease” in the Middle East? He wouldn’t recognize or aid the Hamas government in Palestine even after they won the election fair and square. He’s talking about a multilateral peace conference, but how is that “appeasement”? “Appeasement” is not a leftist ideal. **Peace** is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/312 "2007-07-21T00:36:28Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] You will have to take my word for it (or search for it) that I half-jokingly stated that 90% of leftist ideals are fully incompatible with the Constitution of the USA and that 89% of current conservative ideals are also fully incompatible with the Constitution of the USA. [/QUOTE] What ideals, other than libertarianism, would be? ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/313 "2007-07-21T00:38:11Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Quite the reverse, he is using “liberal” to mean “libertarian” [/quote] [/QUOTE] Yes. I cannot dispute the definition of any English dictionary. I am using liberal to mean an ideology that favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of individual civil liberties. > [@](#): > > an etymologically/historically sound, Damn skippy. > [@](#): > > but nevertheless anachronistic and indefensible, usage. The kids these days are fond of claiming superiority over Webster’s dictionary and god bless them, but scholars and lawmakers look deep into Latin meanings of words when using them and what may play on Air America as “bitchin’ disertation” does not cut the mustard in concrete ideals and debate. The dictionaries, all dictionaries, have not found it necessary to add the anachronism label to any of my words I use here, although I am stopped from using a few every now and again. In my defense, I do not even use the word “liberal” because of the bastardization that goes on.. mostly from right-wing radio hosts. I feel that someday it may be reclaimed for common usage as the dictionary defines it, although not in the next decade or so. When I was a child it was taboo for a politician to self-label with the term. Now it is getting close to fashionable. We called it the “L-word” back then. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/314 "2007-07-21T00:48:03Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] In my defense, I do not even use the word “liberal” because of the bastardization that goes on.. mostly from right-wing radio hosts. I feel that someday it may be reclaimed for common usage as the dictionary defines it, although not in the next decade or so. When I was a child it was taboo for a politician to self-label with the term. Now it is getting close to fashionable. We called it the “L-word” back then. [/QUOTE] Actually, people like Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders and Ralph Nader are more likely nowadays to label themselves [“progressives”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism) – yet another political term that has [changed its meaning over time.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era) ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/315 "2007-07-21T00:59:19Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] what has Bush done to “appease” in the Middle East? [/quote] The Bush administration, along with president GW Bush, have sacrificed 3000+ of our soldiers in what is becoming a vain attempt to stop international Muslim terrorism by going soft on, appeasing, host nations of Muslim terrorists when it is clear that we can level them all.. alone. By sacrificing 3000+ of our troops in a failed attempt to appease the host nations it is clear that appeasement does not work. I am open to hear of incidents of appeasement that have worked to control aggression in regards to the interests and assets of the USA. > [@](#): > > “Appeasement” is not a leftist ideal. **Peace** is. Peace by appeasement, yes. Appeasement can only be implemented under the threat of aggression and aggression means war… to a self-respecting individual and a collective alike. Peace may be also had by utter annihilation or the threat of such. Japan. Germany. Native Americans. I seriously doubt that leftists are attached to the peace that those incidents brought. Again I state, appeasement is a leftist ideal. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/316 "2007-07-21T01:07:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What ideals, other than libertarianism, would be? [/QUOTE] Classic liberalism. Social democracy , democratic socialism, and many other socialism-lite flavors may survive under the protections of our fair nation but not thrive and be empowered on a national basis without severe conflicts that clog up the courts and the time and effort of our populace. They may thrive only as a state-by-state anomaly (and getting stronger) BUT eventually they may (and are doing so) rise to a large enough movement to be able to amend our Constitution enough to amend it to death. That’s about it unless you want to micropick at some oldies like Constitutionalism and other admitted fossils that have been effectively swallowed by classic liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/317 "2007-07-21T01:20:50Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] It has long been the policy in GD that calling someone a liar, or crazy, are not personal insults, despite what definition you may find in your favorite dictionary. [/QUOTE] Point of order: Calling a poster “crazy” in **GD** is a clear violation of the “no insults” rule. (As no one has actually called another poster in this thread “crazy,” it is a moot point.) Calling a poster “a liar” is permitted as a grudging concession to casual conversation, in which the expression “you are a liar” is (too frequently) used in place of the more precise “you have lied.” Claiming that another poster has lied is not a personal insult; it is a challenge to the argument. Challenging arguments is the very nature of this Forum and construing challenges to one’s statements as personal insults is a rather silly way to attempt invoke the well-poisoning fallacy, but calling another poster crazy or stupid or morally bankrupt would, indeed, call down the forces of Moderation on one. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/318 "2007-07-21T01:31:04Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] I stated they were leftist ideals. You do not find a laundry list of leftist ideals under a definition in any dictionary. You would have to turn to an encyclopedia to read up on leftist ideals. [/QUOTE] Hey, you’re the one who said all would be revealed if I looked it up in a dictionary. No doubt if I was to show the encyclopedia explanation was similarly lacking, you would recommend I take a college course in order to comprehend your philosophy. That’s not the way we play here. You don’t get to tell people to google it, or look it up in a dictionary, or in an encyclopedia. You make your case, and support it with specific cites, and defend it when weaknesses are pointed out. And when you complain about how you are treated, it is pretty much conceding defeat. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/319 "2007-07-21T01:35:31Z")
I just can’t get over the notion that the OP is deliberately fashioning a political stance that offers no opportunity for agreement. It is not liberal, conservative, or libertarian, it is contrarian. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823/320 "2007-07-21T01:37:38Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] The Bush administration, along with president GW Bush, have sacrificed 3000+ of our soldiers in what is becoming a vain attempt to stop international Muslim terrorism by going soft on, appeasing, host nations of Muslim terrorists when it is clear that we can level them all.. alone. [/quote] Sure we can. By carpet-nuking. I hope you appreciate that is not an option to be considered, ever. We lack the resources to “level them all” through conventional warfare. We lack the resources even to hold down two thoroughly conquered Middle Eastern countries. [QUOTE=DevNull] By sacrificing 3000+ of our troops in a failed attempt to appease the host nations it is clear that appeasement does not work. [/quote] It is also clear that the invasion of Iraq was an attempt to appease nobody. [QUOTE=DevNull] I am open to hear of incidents of appeasement that have worked to control aggression in regards to the interests and assets of the USA. [/quote] I am open to hear of incidents of appeasement by the USA, period. It’s not something I see much of in our history. [QUOTE=DevNull] Peace by appeasement, yes. Appeasement can only be implemented under the threat of aggression and aggression means war… to a self-respecting individual and a collective alike. [/quote] War, OTOH, does not always mean aggression – not on both sides, anyway. [QUOTE=DevNull] Peace may be also had by utter annihilation or the threat of such. Japan. Germany. Native Americans. I seriously doubt that leftists are attached to the peace that those incidents brought. [/QUOTE] Leftists would approve of the defeat and postwar reconstruction of Germany and Japan – fascist powers as they were – but not the extermination of the Indians. You would feel the same way on both points, would you not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rather-sad-overlord-devnull-puts-forth-his-political-beliefs/410823.md?page=17)