# A rational (fact-based) discussion on Trump v Clinton **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 10, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389 "2016-08-10T21:25:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/41 "2016-08-11T14:05:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Trump has killed none. Is that so? > [@Sir Terry Pratchett](#): > > “Do you understand what I’m saying?” shouted Moist. “You can’t just go around killing people!” > “Why Not? You Do.” The golem lowered his arm. > “What?” snapped Moist. “I do not! Who told you that?” > “I Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Three Eight People,” said the golem calmly. > “I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr Pump. I may be – all the things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!” > “No, You Have Not. But You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/42 "2016-08-11T17:01:25Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > That’s pretty much what I was going to say. Clinton has a long career of public service. Trump has a long career of self service. Only looking at the past makes this a no brainer decision for Clinton. If Trump were elected, he would be the most unqualified president in our history. Every other president had prior political experience or was a wartime general (arguably with the exception of Herbert Hoover who was a cabinet secretary, and we all know how that turned out). I think Hillary is about the most qualified candidate I’ve seen in my lifetime with the possible exception of George HW Bush but I don’t think Hillary is any less self serving than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/43 "2016-08-11T19:00:02Z")
Hoover had considerable other types of experience in public service. During World War I he ran the Commission for Relief of Belgium, which by some measures was the single largest humanitarian relief effort ever undertaken in the history the world to that point. He then headed the American Relief Administration, providing famine relief to central Europe, after the war. Then he was Secretary of Commerce. The Great Depression really was not his fault and it’s unlikely any of the 1928 alternatives would have done a better job dealing with it, though his personality and mannerisms were inherently unsympathetic and tone deaf. Hoover was, conservatively, ten times more qualified and smarter than Donald Trump. > [@](#): > > I think Hillary is about the most qualified candidate I’ve seen in my lifetime with the possible exception of George HW Bush Al Gore. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/44 "2016-08-11T19:19:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So you would vote for Rod Blagojevich over Trump since he had a long career in public service? Are you referring to impeached, removed form office, convicted criminal who is still in prison Rod Blagojevich? _That_ Rod Blagojevich? Tough choice, but if he could get out of prison to serve … yes, I would vote for him over Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/45 "2016-08-11T19:26:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Are you referring to impeached, removed form office, convicted criminal who is still in prison Rod Blagojevich? _That_ Rod Blagojevich? > > Tough choice, but if he could get out of prison to serve … yes, I would vote for him over Donald Trump. Okay, fair enough. What if it’s Donald Trump vs. Charles Manson? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/46 "2016-08-11T19:26:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Hoover had considerable other types of experience in public service. During World War I he ran the Commission for Relief of Belgium, which by some measures was the single largest humanitarian relief effort ever undertaken in the history the world to that point. He then headed the American Relief Administration, providing famine relief to central Europe, after the war. Then he was Secretary of Commerce. The Great Depression really was not his fault and it’s unlikely any of the 1928 alternatives would have done a better job dealing with it, though his personality and mannerisms were inherently unsympathetic and tone deaf. > > Hoover was, conservatively, ten times more qualified and smarter than Donald Trump. > Al Gore. Congressman, senator, VP. Pretty much a career politician. That’s the resume of half the vice presidents in recent history. Bush was a politician, a diplomat, a bureaucrat, and VP. ETA but I agree that the question of qualifications is inherently subjective. Some people think that Trump’s LACK of political and government experience makes him the most qualified candidate we have ever had. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/47 "2016-08-11T19:35:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Okay, fair enough. > > What if it’s Donald Trump vs. Charles Manson? That’s an easy one! I’d vote for Manson so long as they kept him IN prison. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/48 "2016-08-11T19:39:34Z")
I don’t have the numbers handy, but who has created more jobs? Hillary or Donald? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/49 "2016-08-11T19:57:31Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I don’t have the numbers handy, but who has created more jobs? Hillary or Donald? You don’t have the numbers handy because “creating jobs” is not subject to numerical analysis. The whole “job creator” meme is not amenable to logic. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/50 "2016-08-11T20:04:14Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I don’t have the numbers handy, but who has created more jobs? Hillary or Donald? Nobody has the numbers handy. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/51 "2016-08-11T20:05:41Z")
And it’s not the Secretary of State’s responsibility to create jobs. Nor a businessman’s, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/52 "2016-08-11T20:11:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Okay, fair enough. > > What if it’s Donald Trump vs. Charles Manson? I’m leaning towards Charlie. Only because Charlie has some leadership experience. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/53 "2016-08-11T20:13:36Z")
I don’t have the numbers handy, but who has ensured more underprivileged children were covered by health insurance? Hillary or Donald? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/54 "2016-08-11T20:25:47Z")
I don’t have the numbers handy but who has kicked more puppies? Hillary or Donald? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/55 "2016-08-11T20:28:00Z")
I don’t have the numbers handy, but who has stiffed more small businesses by reneging on contracts and offering them pennies on the dollar - Hillary or Donald? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/56 "2016-08-11T20:45:39Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I don’t have the numbers handy, but who has created more jobs? Hillary or Donald? I would bet $50 there are more jobs still in existence due to the legislative efforts of Hillary Clinton from 2001-2009 than there are still in existence due to the business efforts of Donald Trump within the same time period. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/57 "2016-08-11T21:09:45Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > I don’t have the numbers handy, but who has created more jobs? Hillary or Donald? Donald has certainly created more jobs in Bangladesh and China. In America - it’s kind of a mixed bag. He does hire lots of people; he just doesn’t pay them. USA Today did a survey and found that Trump has been involved with over 3500 lawsuits in the last three years. > **[USA TODAY exclusive: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/)** > > Among those who say billionaire didn't pay: dishwashers, painters, waiters > [@USA Today article on Donald's habit of stiffing his contractors](#): > > At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others. > > Trump’s companies have also been cited for 24 violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act since 2005 for failing to pay overtime or minimum wage, according to U.S. Department of Labor data. That includes 21 citations against the defunct Trump Plaza in Atlantic City and three against the also out-of-business Trump Mortgage LLC in New York. Both cases were resolved by the companies agreeing to pay back wages. > > In addition to the lawsuits, the review found more than 200 mechanic’s liens — filed by contractors and employees against Trump, his companies or his properties claiming they were owed money for their work — since the 1980s. The liens range from a $75,000 claim by a Plainview, N.Y., air conditioning and heating company to a $1 million claim from the president of a New York City real estate banking firm. On just one project, Trump’s Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, records released by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission in 1990 show that at least 253 subcontractors weren’t paid in full or on time, including workers who installed walls, chandeliers and plumbing. I think Donald’s habit of cheating people out of their wages disqualifies his claim to be a ‘job creator’. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/58 "2016-08-11T21:09:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Trump has done nothing in government, so I don’t see how he could be judged besides on what he says he will do. His record in business is pretty awful, as Warren Buffett said, and he does not even give us enough information (like his tax returns) to judge that. I respectfully disagree: there is plenty of information to judge his skills as a businessman, and I don’t mean newspaper articles, but his own [SEC filings from 1996-2010](https://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=0000943322&type=10-k&dateb=&owner=exclude&count=40). According to the numbers, in that time period, Trump Entertainment Resorts Holdings (TERH) had $16 billion in revenue $441 million in operating income (a 2.8% gross margin) $1.3 billion in losses These losses were compounded by the debt he held on his books: $252 million, _average_ short-term debt (as in, this is due within a year.) $1,246 million, _average_ long-term debt (as in, due next year or later.) The interest on this debt is staggering. In total, over the 16 year period, Trump paid: $2,702,500,000 in interest expense. So, every year, on average, looked like this: Revenue: $1,000,000,000 Operating Expense: 972,450,000 Operating Profit: $27,550,000 Interest Expense: $169,000,000 Profit/Loss: $81,250,000\*\* So, yeah, the data is there to show that he sucks as a businessman but is a wonderful Merchant of Debt. It’s why he transferred from properties to casinos - the cash flows can mask and support all sorts of idiocy. \*Assuming he doesn’t refinance, which he did, but this is a MB post, so deal with my assumptions. To be honest, it appears that he paid very little of his short-term debt back \*\* If you’re wondering how he only loses $81 million while having $27 million to finance both SG&A and $169 million in interest payments, there are a LOT of extraordinary items claimed on his income statements. They changed accounting procedures and estimates, they sold buildings, all sorts of crap. There’s one year he pays himself $40 million or some ungodly amount and then two years later, bankruptcy. Good times! Like I said: he’s a merchant of debt. If I had $80,000 in credit card debt and 3 mortgages on $75,000 on income, Donald Trump would be the guy I would go to for advice… not on how to get out of this trap, but on how to live, and thrive, like this. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/59 "2016-08-11T21:13:25Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > I think Donald’s habit of cheating people out of their wages disqualifies his claim to be a ‘job creator’. Well to be fair, it was claimed he was a “job creator”, not a “wage creator” ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389/60 "2016-08-11T21:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > JohnT;19547178] > So, every year, on average, looked like this: > > Revenue: $1,000,000,000 > Operating Expense: 972,450,000 > Operating Profit: $27,550,000 > Interest Expense: $169,000,000 > Profit/Loss: $81,250,000\*\* He’ll make it up in volume [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rational-fact-based-discussion-on-trump-v-clinton/762389.md?page=4)