# A real constitutional crisis on the horizon? (immigration, sanctuary cities, and DHS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2018, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810 "2018-01-17T07:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/141 "2018-01-22T00:36:19Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Nope, immigration is strictly a Federal matter.](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/10/nation/la-na-immigration-law-20100910) When someone comes over the border of Mexico, they are not entering the State of California, they’re entering The United States. > Why do you think there are no State immigration agencies? I think you are either quoting the wrong person or you have completely misunderstood my whole point, which is: 1. Immigration enforcement is a Federal matter, and 2. Federal laws and policies preempt all state laws in this area, unless Federal law provides some flexibility to states on specified matters. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/142 "2018-01-22T00:43:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t know the exact laws and penalties involved, but it would not be legal for me to share the personal details of my employees to some random person. What law prohibits this? I’m not saying what you say is impossible. For example, Federal employees are protected by the Privacy Act for many things. I’m just not aware of a general prohibition, and I am curious. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/143 "2018-01-22T00:44:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Well, then, I guess **Ravenman** is right. I’m a hypocrite for not seeing a difference between one racist fuck attempting to violate the rights of people in Arizona and another racist fuck attempting to do so in the entire country, or California specifically. And fighting it. And damn well proud of it. The ol’ “just because I have none of my facts right doesn’t mean I’m wrong” apology. Gets me every time. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/144 "2018-01-22T00:46:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Well, then, I guess **Ravenman** is right. I’m a hypocrite for not seeing a difference between one racist fuck attempting to violate the rights of people in Arizona and another racist fuck attempting to do so in the entire country, or California specifically. And fighting it. And damn well proud of it. Enforcing the border is now racist? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/145 "2018-01-22T00:59:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Enforcing the border is now racist? :rolleyes: Didn’t you receive that memo? Everything is now racist. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/146 "2018-01-22T01:15:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > In many ways, this does protect the business owner. If ICE comes in, and demands to take a look around, what is the owner going to do? Especially, if the owner doesn’t actually know that he has the right to refuse, but even then, if the agents seem particularly intimidating or ingratiating, he may allow them access to the private personnel records of his employees with no cause whatsoever. AB450 does more than penalize voluntary access to records. It also penalizes voluntary access to any non public areas of a business - including things like a knock and talk. It eliminates the ability for a person to consent even if they want to. it’s pretty surprising to me that this is seen as a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/147 "2018-01-22T03:42:02Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Enforcing the border is now racist? :rolleyes: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Didn’t you receive that memo? Everything is now racist. Uh, your opinion here is just showing ignorance. Arpaio was found to be in contempt of court for ignoring court orders to stop his illegal race profiling. That involved born Americans too, besides legal residents. That is the trash that Trump pardoned. You bet it was racist, and as I suspected, a lot of ignorance is involved when I see many supporting a party that is pandering to real racists, a party that has gone beyond what is supposed to be the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/148 "2018-01-22T03:53:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Enforcing the border is now racist? :rolleyes: Yeahrite. His deputies pulled over huge quantities of white people asking for their papers. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/149 "2018-01-22T03:54:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The ol’ “just because I have none of my facts right doesn’t mean I’m wrong” apology. Gets me every time. Did you think I was apologizing? Think again. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/150 "2018-01-22T16:14:05Z")
Does anyone truly believe that immigration would be such a hot topic if the persons in question were coming from our northern border rather than the southern one? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/151 "2018-01-22T16:15:06Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Did you think I was apologizing? Think again. Oops, that was a typo. I meant to write: “The ol’ “just because I have none of my facts right doesn’t mean I’m wrong” NON-apology. Gets me every time.” Thanks for flagging so I can correct the record! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/152 "2018-01-22T17:02:00Z")
I’ve been thinking of an example that would be useful to isolate the AB450 issue from that of immigration. Airport security and knock and talks is the first I could come up with. It has some similar characteristics - controlled by the feds, some aspects of voluntary compliance, etc. Remember when the body scanners at airport security lines started being implemented vs the traditional metal detectors? People could opt out if they wanted, though the metal detector line was slightly slower. The body scans seems to be more revealing in terms of personal privacy, but people could choose to use them and they would save just a bit of time. So what if a state passed a law that said, in the interest of protecting privacy, in this state no one is allowed to elect the body scanners and if they do, they are subject to a civil fine. Or if the FBI is looking for a suspect and in canvasing they knock on people’s doors to conduct interviews, evidence gathering, etc. But instead, the state makes it a civil violation to talk to the FBI unless they have a warrant. Now, I’m not a fan of the body scanners myself, but hey if the next guy is, I’m not going to stop him. I’m not a fan of talking to law enforcement if they come to the door either, but I’m not going to stop my neighbor if that’s what they want to do. Except that’s what CA is doing. It’s stopping the person that wants to use the scanners. It’s stopping the person that wants to voluntarily aid federal officers, in their own business. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/153 "2018-01-22T17:30:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Did you think I was apologizing? Think again. What I saw was that you admitted you were wrong, but then tried to throw up some kind of smokescreen to imply that it didn’t matter because your passion is aimed in the correct direction, politically. While that is not an uncommon position to take around here, it’s not a good way to fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/154 "2018-01-22T17:32:30Z")
Not the same thing at all, **Bone**. In your examples, the person doing the volunteering is only exposing her own privacy. When an owner volunteers access to a federal agent, she is exposing the privacy of everyone in the building, and they had no opportunity to volunteer or not! mc ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/155 "2018-01-22T17:43:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Oops, that was a typo. > > I meant to write: > > “The ol’ “just because I have none of my facts right doesn’t mean I’m wrong” NON-apology. Gets me every time.” > > Thanks for flagging so I can correct the record! Hah you’d make a good Republican. “I didn’t say what I said. I said this instead.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/156 "2018-01-22T17:46:37Z")
[An earlier Republican White House Press Secretary:](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/weekinreview/the-nation-the-nondenial-denier.html) > [@](#): > > But on April 17, 1973, Nixon stunned reporters by saying that he had conducted an investigation that raised the prospect of involvement by White House officials. > > Mr. Ziegler told a puzzled press corps that this was now the ‘‘operative statement,’’ repeating the word operative six times. Finally, R. W. Apple Jr. of The New York Times asked, ‘‘Would it be fair for us to infer, since what the president said today is now considered the operative statement, to quote you, that the other statement is no longer operative, that it is now inoperative?’’ > > Eventually Mr. Ziegler replied: ‘‘The president refers to the fact that there is new material; therefore, this is the operative statement. The others are inoperative.’’ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/157 "2018-01-22T17:49:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What I saw was that you admitted you were wrong, but then tried to throw up some kind of smokescreen to imply that it didn’t matter because your passion is aimed in the correct direction, politically. While that is not an uncommon position to take around here, it’s not a good way to fight ignorance. First, it’s the correct direction, ethically. But then you’d never admit that because you’re too busy defending the _political_ actions of your chosen side over the ethics involved. And second, since it hasn’t been tested in court, you (or **Ravenman** , who appears to have his own axe to grind) don’t even begin to know which argument is correct. I guarantee you the Tenth will/would be used if that does happen. So spare me your attempted ‘gotchas,’ both of you. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/158 "2018-01-22T18:01:08Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Not the same thing at all, **Bone**. In your examples, the person doing the volunteering is only exposing her own privacy. When an owner volunteers access to a federal agent, she is exposing the privacy of everyone in the building, and they had no opportunity to volunteer or not! > > mc Consenting to allow an ICE officer to a non-public place in the business doesn’t expose the privacy of anyone in the building necessarily. Access alone is prohibited, like having a conversation in a closed door office. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/159 "2018-01-22T18:02:08Z")
Jesus, **Johnny** , you don’t know a basic issue relating to the Supremacy Clause. Give it up. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810/160 "2018-01-22T18:22:10Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Not the same thing at all, **Bone**. In your examples, the person doing the volunteering is only exposing her own privacy. When an owner volunteers access to a federal agent, she is exposing the privacy of everyone in the building, and they had no opportunity to volunteer or not! > > mc Is there some greater expectation of privacy in the workplace in California than the rest of the country? In my state, I don’t think I’d have much of a leg to stand on if my employer wanted to search my office, my computer, my email inbox, etc. They say “there’s no expectation of privacy” when dealing with company equipment and property. AFAICT, about the only thing they can’t do is put a camera in the bathroom, but IANAL. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-real-constitutional-crisis-on-the-horizon-immigration-sanctuary-cities-and-dhs/806810.md?page=9)