# A reasonable dialogue over the Sultan Kinkari situation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224 "2001-10-09T01:03:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/41 "2001-10-09T16:30:39Z")
I’m surprised that so many people found manny’s comment offensive. But then I lived through the dead baby/totally tasteless jokes fad. Manny’s comment was gross and crude, but it was a joke. But Sultan Kinkari’s comment to Diane that “everything you touch, dies” was just plain vicious. I felt like strangling the #$%@# when I read that. He may not have been offensive in any other thread, but he showed a level of viciousness and religious intolerance that was objectionable, at least to me. I cheered when I saw that he got banned. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/42 "2001-10-09T18:36:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess what I am trying to say, without sounding condescending or rude, is that those of you haven’t ‘been there’ have no idea just how offensive Sultan’s remarks were, and you have no business judging Diane and manhattan for their responses. With all due respect to **manhattan** , he _isn’t_ the only one there. I saw the second tower collapse from my office window. People _I_ know were killed in the attack. **manhattan** is not the only one going to funerals this week, but he _is_ the only one who posted such a remark. I’ll be damned if I’m not going to judge **Diane** and **manhattan** for their remarks, and even if I weren’t, I would not waive the right to pass the same judgment. They’re both very good people. They were both out of line. No more excuses. I do not believe that pain entitles one to behave like a monster. If it did, then there would be lots of parking space in Afghanistan right now. **Sultan** had his back up against the wall and, accordingly, acted like a cornered animal. For what it’s worth, I question the appropriateness of a cross, a symbol of milennia of suffering, in such a high-emotion public space. I also question the endless repetition of “God Bless America.” The Taliban is saying exactly the same thing. **Sultan** wants to belittle the rescue workers? Whatever. Do they _really_ need the fulminating hordes of the SDMB to come to their defense? I think not. Their efforts and their cause are above validation, above vindication, and certainly above reproach. So I’m a little disappointed both that **Sultan** , whom I would love to defend, is little more than a hackneyed, offensive troll, and that good folk behaved badly. But what can you do. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/43 "2001-10-09T19:44:04Z")
OK, I say we gang-bash Diane again. > [@](#): > > \*\*… watched Love Cruise (God I wish that was on every single night!) \*\* Ewwwwww! ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/44 "2001-10-09T20:29:44Z")
[dead horse] Ow. Quit it. Ow. Quit it. Ow. Quit it. [/dead horse] 😉 ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/45 "2001-10-09T22:18:26Z")
It was a tasteless joke directed at a troll. Apparently not a very good one. To those besides him whom it offended, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/46 "2001-10-09T22:57:47Z")
Good call, **Manhattan**. Now, where should I leave this righteous indignation? It’s starting to get heavy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Yue\_Han](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@Yue\_Han](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yue_Han)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/47 "2001-10-09T23:07:15Z")
Ok… so, Diane apologized, Manny apologized (very nice of you, friend). Sultan, when his priviliges were removed, had a chance to apologize and apparently chose instead to send unpleasant emails to Lynn. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, the email I received from him didn’t make me inclined to restore his privileges. I think most of us agree that Sultan was trolling; do those of you who disagree (Batz, Monocracy?) have anything to say for your side? Or can we have this puppy locked up? Again, thanks to everybody for making this an amiable and peaceful discussion. 🙂 –John I have never posted so many smilies before as I have in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2001, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/48 "2001-10-09T23:12:01Z")
All’s well that ends well. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/49 "2001-10-10T00:41:29Z")
In regards to Love Cruise - > [@](#): > > Ewwwwww! You think I was pissed off before!?!?!?! You ain’t seen **NUTHIN’** yet! I’ll show you pissed off! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/50 "2001-10-10T00:56:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Diane - > > Very nice and thoughtful response (IMHO). You’re obviously miles above Sultan and I apologise for insinuating anything about your character. I was wrong. **Leander: Diane** plays hardball, make no mistake about it. But she is a civilized, and civil person. I had the mistake of forming the wrong impression when she took two people I liked to task, not - by coincidence - having encountered a lot of her other posts before that. I flamed her; she defended herself ably, and acquited herself, with dignity, of what I’d accused her of. And I apologized for jumping to the wrong conclusion. As you did. Congratulations on being the sort of humane individual who can admit his error. ---
**Author:** ![Punki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/db5fbb/32.png) [@Punki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punki)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/51 "2001-10-10T04:57:02Z")
**Yue Hen** , thank you for your most reasonable effort at logic. I am thoroughly amazed at this whole incident– **Sultan** attack, counter attack, subsequent banning and pro/anti-banning comments. All prompted, by the way, by **Sultan’s** very thoughtful and intelligent post, which follows: > [@](#): > > Even if a big scrap metal Star of David was found in the rubble, amazing as that would be, I would say “Haul it off to Jersey.” I don’t think it’s right to have the symbol of one religion, whichever it may be, dominating the scenery of the site where people of several denominations lost their lives or are sifting through the rubble. It is so very difficult for those of us who comprehend American as a “Christian” country to understand that America’s strength is in that it is a true melting pot of people of all backgrounds, heritages and religions. **Sultan** exhibits wisdom beyond his (apparent) years for grappling with this very difficult and complicated issue. Most of the problems we now endure in the Middle East result from the fact that we three children of a common God–Christian, Judaic and Muslim–choose to fight and hate one another, rather than to understand one another and our common heritage. Yes, I will agree that **Sultan** lost it after having been crudely attacked by many posters in the Pit, but I stand and salute his original intent and insight and pray that Christians, Jews and Muslims around the world who read this board, will focus upon his extraordinary open-minded attempt at understanding that precipitated these attacks and ignore the close-minded uproar which it provoked. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/52 "2001-10-10T05:40:37Z")
> [@](#): > > SPOOFE: Please don’t call people idiots here, although I think by your last line that you don’t plan on posting much else here anyway. You’re right. I apologize, and ammend my statement to denote that the idea that people get banned simply for holding unpopular opinions is an idiotic idea. Hey, it’s not targeting anyone, right? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/53 "2001-10-10T06:56:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Punki \* > It is so very difficult for those of us who comprehend American as a “Christian” country to understand that America’s strength is in that it is a true melting pot of people of all backgrounds, heritages and religions. **Sultan** exhibits wisdom beyond his (apparent) years for grappling with this very difficult and complicated issue. No, see now, it’s not that simple. Had some official at the WTC erected an “official” symbol for the workers to congregate around, or some sort of “official” memorial, and it had only been a Christian cross, I’d be with you (and a lot of other people) in objecting to it. Because that would be sending an official message of “This cross is all **we** need to symbolize **everyone’s** feelings”. And that would be terribly inappropriate. But that wasn’t what it was about. The cross was an accident (depending on how you look at it). It was just plopped _there_, and _some_ of the rescue workers went to it, and felt comfort from it. It was just one of those things that some individuals took it upon themselves to enjoy, and get comfort from. And people like Sultan wanted it yanked away, anyway. I think that sucks. I think that is the opposite of tolerance and diversity. It’s like saying “I’m over here doing my thing, you’re over there doing your thing, but I don’t like the _idea_ that you’re doing your own thing, because it “bothers” me. So stop it. I don’t care how much it helps you, I don’t care that it means a whole lot to you. I think you’re an idiot for thinking it’s important. Fuck you. I don’t like it. Stop. Unless **I** think it’s OK, you are not entitled to enjoy it.” That sucks. And that’s what was behind Sultan’s attitude - he made that abundantly clear, in a short amount of time. ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/54 "2001-10-11T18:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Yue Han** :_ > Monocracy: When I said you were biased, it was because you quoted specific profane things that were said to Sultan, but generalized Sultan’s comments in a pretty bland statement. **Both sides** used profanity and attacked each other; Sultan claimed that everyone who came near Diane died, mocking several recent deaths in her family. You seem unwilling to see this. Sultan did get stupid and offensive at the end of the thread, like on page 2, when he said that to Diane. But that was only after an entire page of people were being stupid and offensive against him. Read the thread again … Sultan says very little personally about the opposing posters, yet the other posters make him feel like the scum of the earth through name-calling. When Sultan starts to fight back, he gets banned. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Yue Han** :_ > Also, is it your opinion that the workers at the WTC are no worthy of some respect? The bodies have to be cleaned up; other posters have talked about ‘the smell of death’ from the site. But its a horrible, horrible job. The bodies are several weeks old now. The workers are doing this for the good of the city and for the people who died. This is a very good question and is debatable. So the fact that **Sultan** brings up a valid pint makes him a troll? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Yue Han** :_ > In my opinion, I don’t think they deserve to be told to fuck off, especially if the person doing > > 1. admits he is being offensive, which is why he started the ABTM thread. Maybe he was going to start a pit thread of his own, but after reading Lynn’s response in ATMB decided against it. He’s not the one that started the pit thread, he was only reacting to it. And looking at that ATMB thread, it seems like Diane was ordering around Lynn Bodoni: “oh, he was being offensive! ban him!!”. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Yue Han** :_ > In my opinion, I don’t think they deserve to be told to fuck off, especially if the person doing > > 1. is just using the situation as a tool to see how far he can go without being banned. But how does one determine that? The admins of the board _guessed_ that he was doing that. In my opinion, they guessed wrong. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **SPOOFE** :_ > I feel pretty secure in stating that anyone who thinks that people get banned for “only” unpopular opinions is an idiot. Hey, thanks for that assumption without any revelation of evidence, Einstein. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **SPOOFE** :_ > In fact, if you show me one single instance in getting banned for unpopular opinions, I will eat my own testicles. That’s what this thread is about. So far, no one can give concrete reasons on why the banning took place, except for vague terms such as “trolling” and “intentional”. ---
**Author:** ![Yue\_Han](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@Yue\_Han](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yue_Han)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/55 "2001-10-11T20:15:20Z")
> [@](#): > > So the fact that Sultan brings up a valid pint makes him a troll? No, the fact that he brought his “valid point” by calling them morons and saying fuck them did. He wasn’t trying to open a debate about whether or not they are heroes. He was attacking them. And I don’t really see how the issue is debatable. They volunteered to do something horrible, that they don’t want to do and don’t personally have to do, because someone has to do it and they’re willing to sacrifice for others. As far as I can tell, that’s a basic definition of a hero. Maybe Lynn misread his statement as proof he was trolling. (I don’t think she did.) But that still doesn’t mean that the mods play favorites. He wasn’t banned for attacking ‘popular’ posters; he was banned because Lynn believed, based on his ATMB thread, that he was trolling. And when he was banned, he apparently sent Lynn a nasty email, so if it was a misunderstanding he pretty well torpedoes any chance to get it resolved. –John ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/56 "2001-10-13T18:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yue Han \* > **And I don’t really see how the issue is debatable. They volunteered to do something horrible, that they don’t want to do and don’t personally have to do, because someone has to do it and they’re willing to sacrifice for others. As far as I can tell, that’s a basic definition of a hero.** This paragraph contained so much weirdness that i had to takeit apart line by line. **And I don’t really see how the issue is debatable.** Perhaps you shoudl open your mind a bit. **They volunteered to do something horrible,** Horrible in your opinion. Some people find that cleaning toilets is horrible, it’s all amatter of perspective and preference. **that they don’t want to do** If they didn’t _want_ to do it, they wouldn’t be there. You seem to confuse wanting to do a job with enjoying a job. **and don’t personally have to do, because someone has to do it and they’re willing to sacrifice for others.** If they don’t have to do it, why do they? There are volunteers lined up to Virginia waiting to help out cleaning up the WTC … in a supply and demand perspective, the volunteers are actually getting a favour. **As far as I can tell, that’s a basic definition of a hero.** No it’s not. You made up that definition to fit what you you thought were the qualities of a WTC clean-up worker. When you find yourself trying to find logic to support a conclusion rather than using logic to come to a conclusion, it’s time to start second-guessing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Yue\_Han](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@Yue\_Han](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yue_Han)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/57 "2001-10-13T19:44:17Z")
> [@](#): > > They volunteered to do something horrible, > Horrible in your opinion. Some people find that cleaning toilets is horrible, it’s all amatter of perspective and preference. That’s it. I’m done here. I have no idea how to argue with someone who thinks that cleaning up pieces of decaying human flesh could not be horrible from the perspective of nearly all people. Can someone lock this up? I think we’ve resolved things with everyone but Monocracy, and after this I don’t think there’s any hope of a reasonable resolution with him/her. –John ---
**Author:** ![Yue\_Han](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@Yue\_Han](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yue_Han)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2001, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224/58 "2001-10-13T19:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > They volunteered to do something horrible, > Horrible in your opinion. Some people find that cleaning toilets is horrible, it’s all amatter of perspective and preference. That’s it. I’m done here. I have no idea how to argue with someone who thinks that cleaning up pieces of decaying human flesh could not be horrible from the perspective of nearly all people. Can someone lock this up? I think we’ve resolved things with everyone but Monocracy, and after this I don’t think there’s any hope of a reasonable resolution with him/her. –John [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-dialogue-over-the-sultan-kinkari-situation/86224.md?page=2)